Why were there Mk2 corridor firsts in the Golden Arrow in 1964/5?

[teeinox]

I have a couple of photographs of Class 71/HAs hauling the Golden Arrow in which the first two coaches behind the locomotive are Mk2 corridor firsts, painted in Southern green.  One photo is dated September 1964.  The other is dated c.1965.  In that photo, the lead vehicle behind E5015 is a PMV, then the two Mk2 FKs, followed by the Golden Arrow Pullmans.

 

My question is who were these coached provided for?  After all, if you could afford a 1st Class fare, the Pullman supplement would be a financial triviality.  Or was it the privacy of the compartments that was attractive (though Pullmans had coupés)?  And did passengers in these coaches get access to the Trianon Bar?

 

Answers to this puzzle gratefully received!

[Wickham Green too]

Definitely no access to the 'Trianon Bar' ......... the twelve-wheeled iteration was resting at Lowestoft North as a Camping Coach while the eight-wheeler had become the 'Nightcap Bar' on the LMR by that time.

[Oldddudders]

Could it be that there was a shortage of serviceable Pullmans and so a superior coach was required? Brand new FKs would be a great substitute. Not many years before, Eardley was awash with spare stock after Kent Coast Phase 2, but that had all gone by then, and the place looked sad. 

[keefer]

Did the Golden Arrow provide only 1st Class Pullman accommodation, hence the new Mk2 FKs in lieu of 2nd Class Pullman?

[VIA185]

The 'Arrow' had a non-Pullman section, did it not, latterly formed of BR Mk1 stock. Presumably the (green) Mk2s replaced Mk1 FKs for a time. By the time it finished in 1972 it had only blue/grey Mk1s and three or four Pullman firsts. (CJL)

[DY444]

9 hours ago, VIA185 said:

The 'Arrow' had a non-Pullman section, did it not, latterly formed of BR Mk1 stock. Presumably the (green) Mk2s replaced Mk1 FKs for a time. By the time it finished in 1972 it had only blue/grey Mk1s and three or four Pullman firsts. (CJL)

 

It did.  My one and only instance of Class 71 haulage was on the down Arrow and my recollection is that I was conveyed in a blue/grey Mk1 SK.

[RFS]

Use of non-Pullman coaches in the formation had started a lot earlier. Here's a picture of the GA in 1958 with two MK1 seconds in crimson and cream -

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p668741324/ee3e8d35f

 

I believe that in the summer months there were two trains serving the cross-channel steamer - the GA plus a standard-formation boat train. Reduced patronage at other times resulted in non-Pullman coaches being used in the GA. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by RFS

[Steamport Southport]

Some information on the Golden Arrow here. Obviously more tilted towards the Pullman Cars. But does have the formation for the last GA. Which I think are all Mark Ones.

 

The composition of the final “down” train from Victoria was as follows in order of formation, from front to rear: Locomotive E5013

S86731 General Utility Van

S4376 Open Second

S4065 Open Second

S25934 Corridor Second

25944 Corridor Second

35023 Corridor Brake Second

3773 Open Second

Pullman car S306S (ex Orion)

Pullman car S302S (ex Phoenix)

Pullman car S307S (ex Carina)

Pullman car S308S (ex Cygnus)

 

Special Edition Nº5 Golden Arrow

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/index.shtml

 

 

Jason

[mark54]

The Sept 1964 SR Victoria Platform and Carriage Working Programme (available on Robert Carroll’s Coaching Stock Group) show the up train only had the 2FK included in the formation, annotated dates - up to Sept 25th and from 31st May 1965.  They were not in the down train. Formation of the up train is shown as:

 

PMV

Pullman 2nd Brake

Pullman 2nd Car

Pullman 1st Car

3 Pullman 1st Cars

Pullman 1st Brake

2 FK

PMV

(NB – Kitchen cars are not identified. The Brake Cars were Guard Brake Parlours)

 

However, the summer 1965 SR Appendix to Carriage Working Notice shows that second class Pullmans had been withdrawn from the Golden Arrow and replaced by Mk1 stock. The following vehicles were allocated some of which would have been spares:

 

Aquila (K)

Carina (K)

Isle of Thanet (G)

Minerva (G)

Orion (K)

Phoenix (P)

SK 25946

SK 25948

SK 25953

TSO 4903

TSO 4916

BSK 34939

 

So it doesn’t look like the Mk2 FK lasted very long in the formation. Prior to the Mk2’s, the summer 1964 Appendix to Carriage Working Notice had Bulleid FK 7642 & 7643 allocated to the GA.

[Nearholmer]

Anyone who contends that there was never pride in the job in nationalised industries should be shown that 1958 photo; the train looks magnificent.

[Wickham Green too]

Putting on my Pedantic Pullman Purist hat for a moment, perhaps I should remind you that much of that train did not belong to a nationalised industry in 1958 !!?!

[Nearholmer]

The big shiney loco did, though. Any magnificence beyond the first two coaches is barely visible.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Derekl]

49 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Putting on my Pedantic Pullman Purist hat for a moment, perhaps I should remind you that much of that train did not belong to a nationalised industry in 1958 !!?!

Pullman was under the tender care of the BTC by 1958 - the British Pullman Car Company was nationalised in 1954. Although the company operated as a separate entity under the direction of the BTC, it was nevertheless part of the nationalised industry.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Derekl said:

Pullman was under the tender care of the BTC by 1958 - the British Pullman Car Company was nationalised in 1954. Although the company operated as a separate entity under the direction of the BTC, it was nevertheless part of the nationalised industry.

And the Pullman name was still being used as late as 1973, when I left Croydon Control. In the wee small hours a well-spoken chap would ring up, identifying himself as the Pullman Car Company at Brighton, and seek the disposition of Bigs and BEPs for the morning service. 

[phil-b259]

On 20/08/2023 at 00:12, VIA185 said:

The 'Arrow' had a non-Pullman section, did it not, latterly formed of BR Mk1 stock. Presumably the (green) Mk2s replaced Mk1 FKs for a time. By the time it finished in 1972 it had only blue/grey Mk1s and three or four Pullman firsts. (CJL)

 

Not initially - up until WW2 it was a strictly all pullman (and all first class / 'named' pullmans at that) operation.

 

When it started back up after WW2 demand for luxury travel had been suppressed by the conflict so it took some time for demand to recover and then just as people started to shake off the after effects of the war along came jet airliners which could take the journey much more quickly and just as comfortably as a luxury train. As such BR started to add, then increase the 'ordinary' first class and latterly second class accommodation to the train to cater for the changing demographic of the passengers before finally killing it off when the few remaining Pullman cars became life expired

Edited August 21, 2023 by phil-b259

[VIA185]

25 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not initially - up until WW2 it was a strictly all pullman (and all first class / 'named' pullmans at that) operation.

 

When it started back up after WW2 demand for luxury travel had been suppressed by the conflict so it took some time for demand to recover and then just as people started to shake off the after effects of the war along came jet airliners which could take the journey much more quickly and just as comfortably as a luxury train. As such BR started to add, then increase the 'ordinary' first class and latterly second class accommodation to the train to cater for the changing demographic of the passengers before finally killing it off when the few remaining Pullman cars became life expired

But I thought the original question was about MK2 coaches? I wasn't aware the question concerned the period pre-WW2. i'm well aware of the formation changes you mention . I didn't consider them relevant to the question. (CJL)

[Jeremy Cumberland]

31 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Not initially - up until WW2 it was a strictly all pullman (and all first class / 'named' pullmans at that) operation.

Are you sure? There are several accounts of second class accommodation in the 1930s. These may have been second class Pullmans rather than ordinary coaches.

 

42 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

...before finally killing it off when the few remaining Pullman cars became life expired

The Pullman cars were only about 20 years old when the service ended in 1972, so hardly life-expired.

[Wickham Green too]

17 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

... The Pullman cars were only about 20 years old when the service ended in 1972, so hardly life-expired.

A few were built for the 1951 train - but not all the late survivors were from that batch.

[teeinox]

On 21/08/2023 at 14:04, mark54 said:

The Sept 1964 SR Victoria Platform and Carriage Working Programme (available on Robert Carroll’s Coaching Stock Group) show the up train only had the 2FK included in the formation, annotated dates - up to Sept 25th and from 31st May 1965.  They were not in the down train. Formation of the up train is shown as:

 

PMV

Pullman 2nd Brake

Pullman 2nd Car

Pullman 1st Car

3 Pullman 1st Cars

Pullman 1st Brake

2 FK

PMV

(NB – Kitchen cars are not identified. The Brake Cars were Guard Brake Parlours)

 

However, the summer 1965 SR Appendix to Carriage Working Notice shows that second class Pullmans had been withdrawn from the Golden Arrow and replaced by Mk1 stock. The following vehicles were allocated some of which would have been spares:

 

Aquila (K)

Carina (K)

Isle of Thanet (G)

Minerva (G)

Orion (K)

Phoenix (P)

SK 25946

SK 25948

SK 25953

TSO 4903

TSO 4916

BSK 34939

 

So it doesn’t look like the Mk2 FK lasted very long in the formation. Prior to the Mk2’s, the summer 1964 Appendix to Carriage Working Notice had Bulleid FK 7642 & 7643 allocated to the GA.

Thank you for this extract from the 1964 Victoria Platform and Carriage Working.  It raises some interesting questions!

 

First of all, a bit of context.  My understanding is that the HA/Class 71 only provided ETH; they did not have steam heating facilities.  Of the Southern’s types of electric and diesel motive power, only the three Class 70s had provision for steam heating.  In Simon Lilley and John Wenyon’s book “Class 71/74 Locomotives”, they write:

 

“With electrification, the ‘Golden Arrow’ Pullman service would be electrically hauled.  Discussions with the Pullman Car Co Ltd as to who would pay for the fitting of the 17 cars used on the service reached agreement when on 24 June (judging by context, 1960) the Southern Region General Manager Mr C.P. Hopkins agreed to recommend to the Southern Area Board that they pay the £24,000 estimated cost of the work.”

 

It is not said what the work was, but there would be no heating if the Pullmans were not converted to ETH, so I assume it included that.  Furthermore, what were the 17 vehicles?  Yes, there would have been spare Pullmans required, but 17 in total?  And if there were Bulleid FKs in the consist outside the summer season, would not they have had to have been converted too, along with through wiring of the PMVs?  Any light on that one?

 

The second question has to be, if the FKs only worked on the up train, how did they reach Dover from London?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Ten new cars were built in 1951/2, numbers 301-310. All except 303 were named:

301 PERSEUS
302 PHOENIX
304 ARIES
305 AQUILA
306 ORION
307 CARINA
308 CYGNUS
309 HERCULES
310 PEGASUS

 

Some older cars were also upgraded at the same time:

192 [CAR 34]

193 [CAR 35]

194 [CAR 36]

208

213 MINERVA

247 ISLE OF THANET

 

This gives 16, but they weren't all still on the Southern in 1960 (for example, CAR 35 was on the South Wales Pullman, and was withdrawn shortly afterwards), so there must have been at least a couple of others to make up the 17, if 17 were in fact converted to ETH.

 

It seems the same fleet of cars was used to cover the Bournemouth Belle, although this was never electric-hauled.

[mark54]

The summer 1962 SR Appendix has the following Pullman Cars allocated to the Golden Arrow and annotated as fitted with Electric Heating:

 

Aquila

Aries

Carina

Cygnus

Hercules

Isle of Thanet

Minerva

Orion

Pegasus

Perseus

Phoenix

34

36

208

 

That gives a total of 14. In addition Bulleid FK 7642 & 7643 are also annotated as allocated to the GA but doesn't indicate whether EH.