CLAN VS BRITT

[45157]

15 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

IIRC it was 'Clan Cameron' which took a special train for  a gathering of said clan. It was even crewed by Camerons.

Yes, I have a picture of it at Fort William, it was what they were built for and it apparently performed the duty very well, they were also liked by crews on the Port Road boat trains.

 

Following the loco exchanges after BR was formed, a Southern Region Original light Pacific (with an LMS tender 😀) seriously impressed in the Highland regions and was well liked by the crews.

It was then decided to build a lightweight Standard Class 6 Pacific to be used in the Highland regions.

For some reason, when built they were then allocated to Polmadie and Carlisle and mostly used on West Coast main line Class 7 duties where they were not liked, 72009 (very, very dirty) was even used on the Queen of Scots Pullman once from Glasgow to Edinburgh (also have a picture) and apart from 72001 none were ever used on the Highland regions they were designed for and Polmadie even scrapped its five after only 10 years service but Carlisle got another three years out of theirs.

 

Never properly managed, as the people who wanted them never got them and the people who got them didn't want them, a disgusting waste of public money.

72009 was also shipped aroud a few depots in England, even trying to replace Britannias, but without success although it became unique by having green lined cylinders after a late works visit.

 

I remember them from my trainspotting days, nice looking well proportioned locos, a little more "delicate" than a Britannia.

 

Stewart

Edited August 24, 2023 by 45157
missing information

[DOCJACOB]

23 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Didn’t one of the Birmingham-Glasgow jobs regularly produce a Clan? 
What was the one that made it to Fort William? 72001 was it? 

 

Indeed Clan Cameron with special headboard got to Fort William for Clan gathering Think footplate staff were Cameron too?? May have gone twice once to make sure fitted. 

 

Said to be only pacific ever on WHR. 

[Wickham Green too]

17 minutes ago, DOCJACOB said:

Said to be only pacific ever on WHR. 

Apart from Hest Bank, of course, pacifics were rarely seen anywhere on our Atlantic coast !

[APOLLO]

Clans were regular locos on the Manchester Exchange to Glasgow expresses that ran to Preston via Tyldesley & Wigan in the 50's / early 60's. The ex Liverpool Exchange portion was added at Preston but the Clan continued with the combined train.

 

They had mostly gone before my spotting era, though I took this picture at Garstang & Caterall, northbound around 1964 (ish)

 

 

Brit15

Edited August 24, 2023 by APOLLO

[pH]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Apart from Hest Bank, of course, pacifics were rarely seen anywhere on our Atlantic coast !

Regularly at Holyhead (including Brits), Stranraer (Clans) and Gourock (Clans daily at one time and at least one Brit).

Edited August 24, 2023 by pH

[Wickham Green too]

Holyhead & Stranraer, certainly but I'm not sure whether Gourock counts as 'Atlantic coast' or just estuary ( ditto Cardiff, for that matter ) ??!?

[30851]

Shouldn't the Atlantic Coast Express count as well? You don't just get one pacific with that train.

 

 

Rob

[keefer]

I think I've read that Carlisle actually asked to take Polmadie's Clans but this was refused by Management.

[pH]

36 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Holyhead & Stranraer, certainly but I'm not sure whether Gourock counts as 'Atlantic coast' or just estuary ( ditto Cardiff, for that matter ) ??!?

Maybe we needed a definition of “on (our) Atlantic coast”. 
 

The water at Gourock was definitely salt, and from the Atlantic. I restricted myself to places where the rail lines were at the water’s edge. If you extend the definition to “stations in towns on the coast”, then you could add places like Ayr and Girvan.

[Gareth 73]

I must admit to loving the look of the clans compared to the Brits. So much so I have 12(yes I know there's only 10 in pic but since got hengist and another to be decided on lol) most are waiting more detailing and weathering but all have been renamed/renumbered as needed to get all 10.

[30851]

On 23/08/2023 at 11:01, spamcan61 said:

To quote E.S.Cox (who would've known) from his very interesting book on the development of the Standards*, with regard to the rationale behind the Clans:-

 

"(2) The proposed smaller "Pacific" in the 18-ton axle load Class 5 range became the subject of particular heart searching because it was a border line case. On the one hand, truly Class 5 duties were already carried out with great competence by the numerous 4-6-o mixed traffic locomotives already existing, having total weights some 11 tons less than that of the proposed 4-6-2. At this point Bond took an active hand in the deliberations, pointing out that the lower combustion rates which would result from the larger grate at the average rate of working on such duties would give savings almost exactly equated by the capital charges on the increased cost of the Pacific over the 4-6-0, whilst the higher standby losses and the maintenance cost of the trailing truck would remain as debits. On the other hand, if the main idea behind the new engine was some increase in potential capacity beyond that of the existing 4-6-os, as indeed it was, then it would be more appropriate to develop it as a Class 6 from the first. The performance of the S.R. West Country of this power category in the recent trials had been very impressive, and although its design was not acceptable due to its poor efficiency and mechanical complexities, it was clear that there was scope for an 18.5 ton axle load locomotive of this kind"

 

*British Railways Standard Steam Locomotives: pub. Ian Allan, 1966

 

How Clans were they thinking of building when this decision was being made ? I assume they must have been thinking in the hundreds to justify the costs of developing another 'standard' class. Obviously 35 wasn't what they were thinking - they wouldn't have considered it worth it. I suppose, based on the numbering scheme, it was at most a thousand.

 

 

Rob

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, pH said:

Maybe we needed a definition of “on (our) Atlantic coast”. 
 

The water at Gourock was definitely salt, and from the Atlantic. I restricted myself to places where the rail lines were at the water’s edge. If you extend the definition to “stations in towns on the coast”, then you could add places like Ayr and Girvan.

Indeed - without a definition of coast ( is that all tidal waters ? ) and how far from high-tide mark the railway is permitted to be, we're not going to get a definitive answer to this !

 

Anyway, here's a pacific on the ( English Channel ) beach - sorry it's not one of the CPR pair !

 

[Ben Alder]

I have always been intrigued by the possible development of the Clan class and what might have beens with them. Here is  a 5'8" version in black.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Where's Britain's Atlantic coast? Well, Lizard Point to Harland Point surely counts, although perhaps not Penzance which is rather tucked away in Mount's Bay. It might continue round to one of the headlands west of Ilfracombe, but then it's Bristol Channel till you reach the Gower Peninsula. Rhossili is surely Atlantic, but you then probably need to omit Llanelli and perhaps cut across to St Govan's Head, south of Pembroke. North of St David's Head you face the Irish Sea, not the Atlantic Ocean. Beyond that, you probably need to be north of the Mull of Kintyre, but so much of that coast is shielded by islands that you could hardly say that Oban or Mallaig were on the Atlantic.

 

So not much scope for Pacifics by the Atlantic. Newquay, Padstow and Bude is probably all you've got. I don't suppose a Pacific ever made it to Newquay, but did they go to Bude?

[keefer]

1 hour ago, 30851 said:

 

How Clans were they thinking of building when this decision was being made ? I assume they must have been thinking in the hundreds to justify the costs of developing another 'standard' class. Obviously 35 wasn't what they were thinking - they wouldn't have considered it worth it. I suppose, based on the numbering scheme, it was at most a thousand.

 

 

Rob

 

 

Would they have been so expensive though, given they were composed of 'Standard'  (particularly 'Britannia') parts?

As mentioned in previous posts, there was a perceived need/demand for a Class 6 loco with lighter axle-load (i.e. a smaller Brit) for the Highlands area of the ScR.

There was no need for hundreds of said loco, from the start - so if that is what was required to make it worthwhile, it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

As mentioned, the real waste was after construction - locations that didn't need them got them and those that did need them, didn't get them! Hence, by all accounts, the Clans were often used vice Britannias, with the resulting 'poor' reputation.

Edited August 24, 2023 by keefer

[30851]

25 minutes ago, keefer said:

Would they have been so expensive though, given they were composed of 'Standard'  (particularly 'Britannia') parts?

As mentioned in previous posts, there was a perceived need/demand for a Class 6 loco with lighter axle-load (i.e. a smaller Brit) for the Highlands area of the ScR.

There was no need for hundreds of said loco, from the start - so if that is what was required to make it worthwhile, it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

As mentioned, the real waste was after construction - locations that didn't need them got them and those that did need them, didn't get them! Hence, by all accounts, the Clans were often used vice Britannias, with the resulting 'poor' reputation.

 

So, let me rephrase the question - how many Clans and Brits did they think they were going to build? Or to be more general - how many standards were they thinking about? I assume they meant to build them in large numbers (for example there was no 74xxx class so does that imply more than a thousand 73xxx?). It doesn't make sense to me that they would do all that design work if they expected to build a small number of engines - might as well just build a few more of already existing classes. Just building a few engines with a different set of component parts is just going to complicate things even more - especially in an already heavily standardized area like the Western.

 

I don't think I have seen how many they planned to build per year and for how many years. Of course, steel/money shortages and diesels ruined whatever plans they had.

 

Rob

 

 

 

[Matt37268]

6 minutes ago, 30851 said:

 

So, let me rephrase the question - how many Clans and Brits did they think they were going to build? Or to be more general - how many standards were they thinking about? I assume they meant to build them in large numbers (for example there was no 74xxx class so does that imply more than a thousand 73xxx?). It doesn't make sense to me that they would do all that design work if they expected to build a small number of engines - might as well just build a few more of already existing classes. Just building a few engines with a different set of component parts is just going to complicate things even more - especially in an already heavily standardized area like the Western.

 

I don't think I have seen how many they planned to build per year and for how many years. Of course, steel/money shortages and diesels ruined whatever plans they had.

 

Rob

 

 

 

Maybe have a look at this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BR_'Clan'_Class_locomotives
There’s an interesting argument about which one’s going to be the 1000th Standard. 82045 or 72010. 

[keefer]

2 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

So, let me rephrase the question - how many Clans and Brits did they think they were going to build? Or to be more general - how many standards were they thinking about? I assume they meant to build them in large numbers (for example there was no 74xxx class so does that imply more than a thousand 73xxx?). It doesn't make sense to me that they would do all that design work if they expected to build a small number of engines - might as well just build a few more of already existing classes. Just building a few engines with a different set of component parts is just going to complicate things even more - especially in an already heavily standardized area like the Western.

 

I don't think I have seen how many they planned to build per year and for how many years. Of course, steel/money shortages and diesels ruined whatever plans they had.

 

Rob

 

 

 

With respect, that's a different argument. You speculated on the number of Clans that would need to be built (as a completely new Class) to be economic.

Whereas BR had already decided that a relativity small number of Clans, using as many Standard (esp. existing Brit) components as possible, was economic. The limited use/number required ensured that if it wasn't viable, it wouldn't exist.

Yes, perhaps, a new low-axleload Class 6 wasn't really required and existing Class 5 or 7 locos could be used instead i.e. it may have been better/cheaper to not bother with the Clans at all. But there must've been enough of a case for them to exist.

Edited August 25, 2023 by keefer

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, 30851 said:

... I assume they meant to build them in large numbers (for example there was no 74xxx class so does that imply more than a thousand 73xxx?). ...

More likely the 74000 series was intended for a class that never made it off the drawing board.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

How (many) Clans were they thinking of building when this decision was being made ? I assume they must have been thinking in the hundreds to justify the costs of developing another 'standard' class. Obviously 35 wasn't what they were thinking - they wouldn't have considered it worth it. I suppose, based on the numbering scheme, it was at most a thousand.

The first aspect to be considered is around the word 'thinking'. Very little of that was going on in terms of a traction strategy. The new CME and his team were going to design and have built steam locomotives in accordance with established custom and practise of the rights the CME's office granted. Much flannel in justification, but what was going to be produced was 'same old, same old' technologically. 

 

As for the cost, the joy of the Stephenson steam locomotive is it's relatively small first cost in relation to the power output, justified publicly as 'maximum horsepower per pound'. And there were large teams of experienced chaps smoking pipes at their drawing boards ready to go, with matching production units alongside, fully crewed with appropriately skilled staff.

 

Where this all falls down is the operating expense: that's where the Stephenson steam loco really does the damage. Thermally inefficient and expensive in continuous daily maintenance and sparing, with very frequent periods out of traffic, including regular return to a main workshop for overhaul. All the justification under the heading 'standardisation' is false. Unless there was the prospect of very swift scrapping of existing and replacement with the new standard traction, this unnecessarily introduced yet more variety into the existing mix.

 

Better by far to have adopted unchanged a few existing steam designs as required, until some high quality strategic thinking had set a better course toward a more efficient traction scheme.

[LMS2968]

The 'more efficient traction scheme' was the actually the long-term plan: electrification which by-passed the diesel option, rather the direction we are currently moving but seventy years late. Electrification was and is expensive and also time consuming to implement and it was anticipated that the full system would take to between 1980 to 2000 to achieve. The new steam locos were to cover the gap, replacing worn-out and obsolete types in the short term and displaced pre-Nationalisation engines as the system was electrified sector by sector. Eventually, few lines would be left to be electrified and these would have entirely BR Standard types as motive power until they too were made redundant as these last areas were electrified.

 

That was Robin Riddles grand scheme, unceremoniously dumped into the waste bin with the 1955 Modernisation Plan which took the country down the expensively disastrous diesel route with an untried (in this country) motive power type without the knowledge and experience needed to make it work.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, LMS2968 said:

That was Robin Riddles grand scheme, unceremoniously dumped into the waste bin with the 1955 Modernisation Plan which took the country down the expensively disastrous diesel route with an untried (in this country) motive power type without the knowledge and experience needed to make it work.

Has a familiar ring to it doesn't it - national plan to do one thing and then a tactical decision to do something very different.

 

Something along the lines of HS2, electrification of the GWML, the MML, Trans Pennine, the electric spine etc and then someone mentioned bi-mode and all of a sudden this idea comes that we don't need to fully electric, we just need bi-mode and now batteries to bridge any gaps in the wiring so electric to Bristol then diesel thereafter, electric to Cardiff then diesel and the humdinger of an idea not to wire a rather long tunnel in the Pennines and simply run through it under diesel power.

 

To be fair I kinda like the idea of battery power for the short branch lines but really anything with two tracks to me should really be wired.

 

But each time a plan to go electric comes up there always seems to be a backslide to a fossil fuel powered engine.

[spamcan61]

I would recommend E.S.Cox's book on the subject I mentioned earlier, I found it an interesting read, quite technical in places but not overly so. A first hand account by the man in charge, although of course that doesn't make it necessarily the only way of interpreting the events. My copy was 2 quid from the local Oxfam bookshop a few weeks back. Plenty of copies around elsewhere for a few quid:-

 

https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedRare.cgi?title=&author=cox&title=standard+steam&keyword=&isbn=&exclude=&bookshop=&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&dispCurr=USD&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&match=Y&timeout=15&store=ABAA&store=Alibris&store=Abebooks&store=AbebooksAU&store=AbebooksDE&store=AbebooksFR&store=AbebooksUK&store=Amazon&store=AmazonCA&store=AmazonUK&store=AmazonDE&store=AmazonFR&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=BiblioUK&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Ebay&store=EbayUK&store=EbayFR&store=LRB&store=ZVAB&via=used

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

21 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

That was Robin Riddles grand scheme, unceremoniously dumped into the waste bin

And why was it dumped? Because more than BR was struggling, consider the air pollution in London alone... Changing horse midstream is never pretty, but if the horse is very evidently dying, it's a necessity.

[LMS2968]

It was still the wrong - and expensive - policy, but your contention, "Very little of that (thinking) was going on in terms of a traction strategy," is at fault. Whether or not Riddles' ideas or the Modernisation Plan were wrong,, whether or not the original plan was eventually dropped, the thoughts for an overall strategy were present.