4mm scale Black 5 and 8F info sought.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

One of the projects in the roundtuit pile is to re-create a scene I saw and photographed at Chesterfield in 1968 of 2 black 5's and an 8F being hauled to the scrapyard.

Knowing diddly squat about developments in the respective models over the years, my question is, which model loco's are the most suitable for the task?

I realise that by default the newest releases will be the most accurate, but as I only want them as loco's to be towed I don't particularly want to be paying 2 arms and 3 legs to have to strip them down and de-motor them if I can avoid it.

So, bearing in mind they will have to be converted to EM, then wheel profile etc comes into the equation, but is there a previous release that is suitable for such a task, maybe with a modicum of detailing to up it's quality. It maybe considered heretical amongst steam modellers, but I know that on the black 5's at least there are differences in boilers, throatplates etc, but as I'm trying to keep it simple Nelson's eye will come into play.

I realise it's the old conundrum of cost v practicality, but was just wondering if there is a reasonably simple answer?

Any pointers gratefully received.

 

Mike.

[Steamport Southport]

Get the GBL models and sling an older 1980s/90s Hornby tender drive unpowered chassis under them!

 

The ones that were "free" on the covers of magazines. Ten a penny on eBay and at car boot sales. The Black Five was actually a copy of the most recent Hornby model and is pretty decent.

 

 

Jason

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Tatty H-D and Wrenn 8F are now often to be found cheap s/h in options such as motorless,  non-runner, or 3 rail; with asking prices below £20. Will need new wheels though...

[Wheatley]

The 8F loco chassis and the tender got better when they changed from tender to loco drive, but I don't think the loco body changed much, being more or less there or thereabouts from the beginning. You should be able to find the Ringfield tender drive version cheaper than the current loco drive version. 

 

For the Black 5 the old tender drive version (later updated to loco drive in the Railroad range) is less attractive as the loco body was somewhat cruder that the current version. Still an option if you can't find the GBL version though. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Thanks for your guidance chaps.

I didn't even know about the GBL series, so in a fit of excitement I've bought an 8F and a Black 5 to give them a coat of looking at, at £25 the pair what could possibly go wrong?!!

 

Mike.

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Thanks for your guidance chaps.

I didn't even know about the GBL series, so in a fit of excitement I've bought an 8F and a Black 5 to give them a coat of looking at, at £25 the pair what could possibly go wrong?!!

 

Mike.

 

There was a previous thread on them with quite a few people motorising them. I think most of the photos will be gone though.

 

 

 

Some were much better than others. Usually if it was a copy of a recent model they were good, with a few that were poor as they were very old such as the Caley Single and old Hornby GWR Pannier.

 

Ones that have potential for motorising were things like the Jinty and BR Standard 4 2-6-0 and 2-6-4T. They were virtually Bachmann bodies!

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Avoid the older Triang Hornby type tender-drive Black 5s, as they sit too high off the railhead by some 2mm, which doesn't sound much but is noticeable.  For EM you have to replace the RTR wheels anyway of course.  Locos being hauled for scrap were in mid-gear, so that'll be right for once, and had the tender bunkers empty of coal, the regulator, brake, reverser and gauges removed, and the motion stowed in the tender.  Anything made of brass was taken off before sale to the scrappy, which included window frames so the locos were usually windowless, and safety valves were removed in case any idiot tried to light a fire.  Most were not in anything like the heavily rusted 'scrapyard condition' models you see on eBay, just dirty but with the livery and numbers usually visible; in fact, some were in better exterior nick than many locos still in service by '67 or '68.  Trains were usually of three locos at a time, worked as class 8 with a brake van; ISTR there was a speed limit of 35mph for such movements.  Hauling locos were usually Hymeks for some reason on the WR.  GW locos had the numberplates removed but the numbers were stamped on the coupling rod oil bosses.  We restored them with chalk fairly quickly.

 

Investigation of the sandboxes of locos that had been at Woodham's for four or more decades showed that the sand put in them for the loco's last working duty was still there...

[Steamport Southport]

Not quite correct.

 

Apart from name and numberplates all fittings were part of the deal. Some locomotives still had their pipework, safety valve covers and copper chimney caps long after they had arrived at Woodhams. Using Woodhams as an example as most other yards disposed of the locomotives immediately.

 

Photos dated 1968 here suggest that is at least three years after arriving. Possibly even longer.

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/locomotives-graveyard-hundreds-old-trains-14908147

 

31618 and 43924 look virtually intact here three to four years after they arrived and soon to leave.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/43924-lms-3924-br-43924/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/31618-sr-a618-sr-1618-br-31618/

 

 

One thing did happen though. Many scrapyards sold the copper fireboxes back to BR at inflated prices for the overhead wires as there was a copper shortage at the time. There is a photograph of Cashmores with dozens of fireboxes waiting to be moved. Apparently they weren't very happy when they found out all those Bulleids they bought had steel fireboxes!

 

 

Jason

[DCB]

11 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

One of the projects in the roundtuit pile is to re-create a scene I saw and photographed at Chesterfield in 1968 of 2 black 5's and an 8F being hauled to the scrapyard.

Knowing diddly squat about developments in the respective models over the years, my question is, which model loco's are the most suitable for the task?

I realise that by default the newest releases will be the most accurate, but as I only want them as loco's to be towed I don't particularly want to be paying 2 arms and 3 legs to have to strip them down and de-motor them if I can avoid it.

So, bearing in mind they will have to be converted to EM, then wheel profile etc comes into the equation, but is there a previous release that is suitable for such a task, maybe with a modicum of detailing to up it's quality. It maybe considered heretical amongst steam modellers, but I know that on the black 5's at least there are differences in boilers, throatplates etc, but as I'm trying to keep it simple Nelson's eye will come into play.

I realise it's the old conundrum of cost v practicality, but was just wondering if there is a reasonably simple answer?

Any pointers gratefully received.

Mike.

 

It's not  at all simple. You need all the wheels to revolve which will be a challenge and  next to impossible with Hornby and Wrenn chassis.  The GBL ones are the ones to use,   Why?  Often, almost  always the  connecting rods were taken down so the pistons did not move and pump air for long hauls dead.  That  would mean removing the valve gear rod from the crank pin.   Most of the other valve gear remained in place  static. but the wheels would go round and the quartering would be out    The GBL fixed valve gear is ideal for this, break off the bits you don't need....    Hornby / H/D / Wrenn chassis aren't designed to be push along without wheels and their middle wheels don't touch the rails  so the middle wheels won't go round if pushed.  so  that really its a non starter..  ,I would get the relevant GBL static model  andt some suitable wheels 2000 era Hornby would be good and not too expensive,( No need to quarter them, also tender wheels.    I would then make  a chassis to fit the GBL body to suit the chosen wheelsets from anything, wood, brass, plastic card any old thing  doesn't need to be super accurate,, a Comet chassis would be perfect  but make sure all the axles take some weight, compensating beams would be ideal  but ensure all the wheels revolve easily when pushed.     I am not sure how easy it is to fit rolling wheels to the GBL tender, but there are loads of Mainline Scot and Patriot Stanier tenders around so logically a repaint or GBL body Mainline chassis should work.       If you don't want to model them with the valve gear taken down you could just use current Hornby  locos  and run them and the tow loco  as a DCC Consist.  It won't look right though, without those driving  wheels revolving out of synch  .    I feel a Airfix Royal Scot heading for the scrapyard project coming on....

Edited August 24, 2023 by DCB

[Re6/6]

Post removed.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Re6/6
Appeared in wrong thread somehow.

[Mark Forrest]

21 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Thanks for your guidance chaps.

I didn't even know about the GBL series, so in a fit of excitement I've bought an 8F and a Black 5 to give them a coat of looking at, at £25 the pair what could possibly go wrong?!!

 

Mike.

A slippery slope; you'll soon be a full time kettle modeller

[cctransuk]

13 hours ago, DCB said:

 

It's not  at all simple. You need all the wheels to revolve which will be a challenge and  next to impossible with Hornby and Wrenn chassis.  The GBL ones are the ones to use .....

 

This is total tosh, I'm afraid.

 

Any RTR steam loco - preferably a cheap non-runner - can be converted to free-running simply by removing the motor and worm. The connecting rods can be removed very simply.

 

The GBL locos would be useless for this project as the wheels are a solid casting and do not revolve.

 

CJI.

[The Johnster]

In fact the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn chassis, rewheeled to have flanges where there should be flanges, are very good for free-running dead loco purposes, the weight of the diecast mazak chassis block being sufficient to keep the wheels turning freely.  All you need to do is to loosen the grub screw on the cog gear, but you will get better running if you remove the pickups which will act as brakes and drag.  Problem of course with HD/Wrenn models is the massive ringfield motor in the cab.  Can be removed of course but then you have to provide your own cab floor and details.

 

Motion to be removed is coupling and connecting rods, valve gear, and piston rod/crosshead assemblies, anything that the wheels would move in transit.  With the loco in mid-gear (and the lever removed or fixed in position so it can't be played with) the pistons don't pump anything, they just move air about against no pressure, but the crosshead and piston rod are not secured in place so they are removed and put in the tender bunker to prevent them falling out. 

 

The appearance of engines being moved in this way, with the cranks all out of sync with each other and the locos sort of lolloping along, was quite distinctive.  It was not confined to scrap locos (these were hauled from the withdrawal depot to assembly points where they were put up for tender to the scrap merchants or anyone else interested, then to their new owners.  The assembly points were stategically sited around the country, and I remember them at Gloucester Barnwood and Shrewsbury Sutton Bridge.  These held engines into 1968 and 1969 while the backlog of withdrawals were disposed of), but one would sometimes see NCB and other industrials being hauled in freight trains* and heading for Canton, where there was a wheel-profiling lathe.  I'm told that some transfers between collieries were done with the motion in place and the  locos in light steam to provide lubrication, and with NCB crews riding on the footplates; 9600 was moved from Abercynon shed to Merthyr Vale colliery in this fashion in late 1965 and might be said to have been the first loco to break the post-August steam ban in the area...

 

*Marshalled behind the loco (class 9) or the fitted head (class 8), speed restricted to 35mph.