TPEX Class 68 & Mk5 Nova 3 fleet to be withdrawnDec 2023

[jjb1970]

27 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Except that when you have a senior civil servant at the DfT living in Austria and flying to the UK when he decides to visit the office and presumably gets met at the airport by chauffeur driven limo ...  And he has done more damage to the industry than anyone else I can think of.

 

People aren't stupid and are very good at identifying 'do as I say, not as I do' and 'rules for thee but not me'. No doubt he'll claim to be special, in which case we can all claim to be special. A friend of mine was commissioned by a green NGO to do a report on use of aircraft for short trips by the great and (not so) good attending one of those high power forums in Switzerland to virtue signalling about the evils of climate change which was simultaneously comical and shocking.

[The Stationmaster]

On 26/12/2023 at 13:03, jjb1970 said:

 

People aren't stupid and are very good at identifying 'do as I say, not as I do' and 'rules for thee but not me'. No doubt he'll claim to be special, in which case we can all claim to be special. A friend of mine was commissioned by a green NGO to do a report on use of aircraft for short trips by the great and (not so) good attending one of those high power forums in Switzerland to virtue signalling about the evils of climate change which was simultaneously comical and shocking.

I agree but this bloke has been there more than long enough to have been dragged through the pages of various national newspapers or taken to the cleaners by tv 'investigative  journalists' but that hasn't happened.  He;s just carried on gettinaway wuith his warped ideas and malign influence on Britain's rail network.  And it's not even as if he actually understands anything about railways.

 

He did some old school union bashing - most of which showed how downright stupid and ignorant he is - so that might endear hm to the likes of 'The Daily Mail' and that might have put them off having a go.   But there are plenty of others who could do a really good on him but seem to steer clear for some reason - whatever it might be.  He clearly had the ear of one particular Minister who then went on to utter some of the garbage this clown had invented (e.g old Spanish customs' - all of which actually dated from the post 1994 privatised era!).   But others have followed Shapps - maybe they're as ignorant and gullible as he was?  

[jjb1970]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree but this bloke has been there more than long enough to have been dragged through the pages of various national newspapers or taken to the cleaners by tv 'investigative  journalists' but that hasn't happened.  He;s just carried on gettinaway wuith his warped ideas and malign influence on Britain's rail network.  And it's not even as if he actually understands anything about railways.

 

Unfortunately the media seem very selective about which individuals and organizations they want to hold to account. Part of it is no doubt ignorance and a lack of specialized knowledge to understand what is going on. I don't know about rail reporters with regular media but those who report on maritime matters are almost all generalists biding their time for an opportunity to get a move to something more important and with zero to little knowledge or interest in shipping (what is more worrying is that reporters for the specialized maritime press are not really any better). However it goes beyond that and I look at certain story's  I'm familiar with and which get reported on and it does beg the question of what makes something of interest to the media. 

[simon b]

So Chiltern have a tender out for replacement of the mk3's, the way it reads I'd say that is definitely where the mk5 sets are headed to.

 

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2023/W51/813170912

[Mike_Walker]

13 minutes ago, simon b said:

So Chiltern have a tender out for replacement of the mk3's, the way it reads I'd say that is definitely where the mk5 sets are headed to.

 

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2023/W51/813170912

Not necessarily, it says they can be either self powered or hauled and requires that they be quieter than the existing 68 + mk3 combinations.  Given that the Mk5s need 68s it's hard to see how they'd be any quieter.

[nightstar.train]

26 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not necessarily, it says they can be either self powered or hauled and requires that they be quieter than the existing 68 + mk3 combinations.  Given that the Mk5s need 68s it's hard to see how they'd be any quieter.

 

The Mk5s could presumably have their cabs reconfigured. Much cheaper to do that than build new trains. There are a couple of possible options in the class 93s and class 99s to haul them. First had certainly made noises about new locomotives for the Mk5s and GWR sleepers earlier in the year, so options are probably being worked on. 

[simon b]

38 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not necessarily, it says they can be either self powered or hauled and requires that they be quieter than the existing 68 + mk3 combinations.  Given that the Mk5s need 68s it's hard to see how they'd be any quieter.

Beacon rail have an exhaust silencer mod that reduces the noise, it's the ETS supply requirement that makes most of the racket so there are ways around it.  Given the time frame involved I can't see it being anything other than the mk5 sets.

[Mike_Walker]

Chiltern already operate Class 68s with their Mk3 sets.  The difference from the TPE Class 68s + Mk5 combos is that Chiltern use a modified AAR MU system (a throwback to when they used 67s) whilst the TPE sets use a dedicated CAF system.  The easiest solution would be to swap the dedicated Chiltern 68s with the TPE ones. 

 

As for other solutions, there are Class 175s currently looking for a home although despite being in theory 100mph units, the Chiltern line is largely subject to SP 100 speeds which Class 175s are not permitted to run at - they have to run at "ordinary" passenger speeds, in this case 75mph.  However, as an exception is made to allow the 68s and Mk3s to run at 100mph too, a case could be made to allow the 175s to operate at SP speeds too.

[simon b]

If the mk5 sets do go to chiltern the locos will move with them, there are quite a few electrical differences between these and Chiltern's existing locos. Door controls and an onboard train monitoring systems come to mind.

 

The 175's don't have the correct form of tpws for the Chiltern line, so that would need to be addressed before they could be used. Then there is the issue of the lack of seating compared to another unit, and they won't multi up to a 165/168.

 

I also heard a rumour that the 175's have already been signed to another company.

[adb968008]

16 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not necessarily, it says they can be either self powered or hauled and requires that they be quieter than the existing 68 + mk3 combinations.  Given that the Mk5s need 68s it's hard to see how they'd be any quieter.

The alternative choices available to Chiltern in 2024 are…

 

class 175 no gangways, but rumoured to be going ‘up’ in the world

Class 221 from Avanti.. not available until 2024

class 320/321/379… AC so no use, scrapman cometh for these.

HSTs, 153’s/156’s.. motley collection of odds and sods available.

 

mk5’s.. compatible with 68’s, right length train, reduced training requirements and available in the timescale.. suggested sound reducing abilities available to retrofit and has hvo capability.

 

Sounds like a good fit.

 

The only wildcard.. those UK spec diesels Stadler supplied to Spain… they dont do much and are effectively a 68… but its still mk5’s.

 

It might be a good opportunity for WCRC to solve some of their cdl woes by buying a few rakes of Chilterns mk3’s and Air’ing up some of their steam fleet.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by adb968008

[nightstar.train]

If and when the Mk5s go to Chiltern I hope they get a nice livery. And it’s announced before Accurascale commission a new run of models so we can get a set. 

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

If and when the Mk5s go to Chiltern I hope they get a nice livery. And it’s announced before Accurascale commission a new run of models so we can get a set. 

Hopefully not the livery, Chiltern 68’s are the ones no one wants, keeping the livery would help soak them up.

 

tbh I think the 68/mk5’s would be very useful for Chiltern, if not Chiltern, replacing GWR Castle HSTs too would be a good fit, but suspect theres no money there.

Edited December 29, 2023 by adb968008

[nightstar.train]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Hopefully not the livery, Chiltern 68’s are the ones no one wants, keeping the livery would help soak them up.

 

tbh I think the 68/mk5’s would be very useful for Chiltern, if not Chiltern, replacing GWR Castle HSTs too would be a good fit, but suspect theres no money there.

Mk5s in GWR green, 😁

 

That would be amazing, but almost certainly won’t happen. They ditched the HSTs to reduce operating costs. Adding a new small fleet would do the opposite. I think Chiltern is the most likely option, and the tender they’ve put out does seem to be written to basically make them the only option. They want the fleet available in 2024 for staff training, which probably rules out new builds. Although I do recall that the Chiltern Mk3 sets are longer than the Mk5s, so some reconfiguring will be needed with a few driving trailers sidelined. 

 

[simon b]

I would imagine they will be reformed into 7 or 8 car sets, some with a driving trailer at both ends.

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, simon b said:

I would imagine they will be reformed into 7 or 8 car sets, some with a driving trailer at both ends.

The spec says..
 

Quote

Be able to be utilised in fixed formations of between 5 and 6 passenger vehicles or sub-multiples of;
 

I only see voyagers and mk5’s being able to meet that, and available short term. It depends on 805/7 entry to service?

 

i’m not sure Avantis voyagers are much good, but EMRs seem ok.

 

I suppose 180’s as they become available, but i’m not sure thats a decent proposition, i’d not be surprised to see GC replace them, they have got two 221’s already... the 222’s I could imagine replacing Scotrails HSTs, though more 805’s would be needed and comments have suggest Hitachi is pricing them out.

Edited December 29, 2023 by adb968008

[simon b]

I know it says 5 or 6 vehicles, but would that be long enough? It shouldn't be to hard to reform them to 6 cars before they start in service, but how many seats would be lost compared to the present mk3 formations?

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, simon b said:

I know it says 5 or 6 vehicles, but would that be long enough? It shouldn't be to hard to reform them to 6 cars before they start in service, but how many seats would be lost compared to the present mk3 formations?

 

 

On 08/12/2023 at 11:04, newbryford said:

Latest wibble is that they will be reformed into 7-car sets (dropping some DTs) and moved to Chiltern.

But not until sometime late in 2024.

 

edit - thinking about it, the non-corridor end coaches will also be less used.

Unless there's a plan to modify them and fit couplers and corridors suitable for mid-set use?

 

 

We shall see.

[lmsforever]

As  long as we passengers have comfortable trains that continue to arrive on time ,we are very lucky to be served by Chiltern for the last twenty years.

[Mike_Walker]

But today's Chiltern is very different from that of the glory years when the late and lamented Adrian Shooter was in charge.  Since DB in the shape of Arriva have been in charge morale has gone through the floor.  Lots of long-serving managers and drivers have moved on in disgust.

It was best summed up by the Turbo which emerged from Aylesbury depot one day with it's branding amended to read: "sadly a part of Arriva  a DB company".  It managed to run around for several days before it was spotted and the order came down to restore it to normal!

[4630]

For those interested, it's been reported elsewhere that a consist apparently comprising of 68032 Destroyer, Mark5 A set TP03, with 37601 Perseus providing the traction is working today as 5Q94, Longsight TMD to Long Marston. 

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03416/2024-01-04/detailed

Edited January 5 by 4630

[woodenhead]

Video of the move here at Stafford, is this for storage or testing with Chiltern?  Seems odd to be sending the 68 for storage, surely they would go to Crewe or Carlisle once off lease to TPE.

 

[4630]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Video of the move here at Stafford, is this for storage or testing with Chiltern?  Seems odd to be sending the 68 for storage, surely they would go to Crewe or Carlisle once off lease to TPE.

It probably isn’t too surprising.  When Mark 5A sets have had regular periods of storage in the past at Gascoigne Wood Sidings it has generally been with a coupled TPE Class 68.

 

I imagine this is so that the various onboard systems on both the loco and the Mark 5A sets can be regularly started up to try to keep deterioration at bay.

 

The class 68s and Mark 5A sets remain on lease with TPE until later this year - May I seem to recall - so it’ll be in their interest to keep them in good order prior to handing back. 
 

Arguably, they will be more secure at Long Marston and I guess any interested parties can more easily ‘kick the tyres’ there than at Longsight. 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Video of the move here at Stafford, is this for storage or testing with Chiltern?  Seems odd to be sending the 68 for storage, surely they would go to Crewe or Carlisle once off lease to TPE

Off to the used vehicle lot.

 

one elderly owner, hardly used, low mileage, great condition.

 

Call A. Daly, Exports available.

 

everyones a go’er.

Edited January 4 by adb968008

[simon b]

Apparently Chiltern have now put a bid in for the the MK5 fleet with locos. More 68's is just fine with me.

[62613]

Went past Longsight depot last week; still one set in the sidings there