Use of RAAC in UK railway buildings

[Nearholmer]

On 04/09/2023 at 09:44, Joseph_Pestell said:

The people responsible for our public sector don't really have much knowledge or experience of practical matters like building.

It depends very much on what you mean by “responsible for”.

If you mean “politically accountable for”: true, and why should it be otherwise?

 

If you mean responsible for at an engineering level: utter rubbish (I typed another word, then replaced it with ‘rubbish’ out of politeness).

 

The various branches of the public services have a long history of employing, indeed training, knowledgable professionals and tradespeople, and even N years after privatisation of a great deal, we’re still reliant upon their capabilities for all sorts of things, including most of our basic utilities.

 

Whether the use of RAAC was foreseeable folly at the time, or ‘current good practice’ smiled upon by entire professions, I don’t know, because that isn’t my branch of engineering. Probably best to do some delving and reading to find out.

 

As a footnote: another, earlier, form of lightweight concrete, used in not dissimilar ways, that I do know has caused consternation in odd applications in the railway industry, and has had to be stripped-out and replaced at considerable cost, is what I know as ‘coke breeze concrete’ (I think that’s actually a generic term and the problems relate to a specific type) made using what amounts to coke as an aggregate, a “good idea” from the 1890s. I was party to one job where a high-level walkway had been cast in it, using what amounted to corrugated iron as a left-in-situ form work. The decomposition of the clinker in a damp atmosphere releases corrosive products which then eat the form work and lightweight reinforcing, leaving an effectively unsupported matrix of very fragile stuff. This is the sort of thing: https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/journals/built-environment-journal/when-outmoded-building-materials-strike-back-.html

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Darius43]

I would like to applaud Nearholmer’s response above.  I started my career in Civil Engineering in 1986 as a graduate engineer with the Property Services Agency (PSA) - part of the UK Government Department of the Environment.  The PSA comprised engineers, architects, project managers, QSs, site control resident engineers and clerks of works and a whole load of specialists in various aspects of building and construction.  Training was excellent with in-house residential courses and there were technical standards for many aspects of design of public buildings and defence infrastructure.   The PSA built an operational RAF airfield in the Falkland Islands from nothing in 80 weeks.

 

80 weeks to touchdown
 

It was an amazing organisation, but it was privatised in 1992 and the expertise spread out over many companies or mainly lost to early retirement.   There is a newly formed Government Property Agency that is starting, in a small way, to look like the PSA.

 

Yet one more case of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

Darius

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Darius43

[mac1960]

rugged peak 

A pretty accurate commentary on the subject. CLASP was mentioned earlier however this doesn’t have the same issues. It was primarily designed for use in areas with mining  subsidence. The biggest use I have come across is the 1969/70 buildings at York Uni where CLASP was used though no mining subsidence.

 

Cheers

Mr Mac

[melmoth]

40 minutes ago, mac1960 said:

rugged peak 

A pretty accurate commentary on the subject. CLASP was mentioned earlier however this doesn’t have the same issues. It was primarily designed for use in areas with mining  subsidence. The biggest use I have come across is the 1969/70 buildings at York Uni where CLASP was used though no mining subsidence.

 

Cheers

Mr Mac

 

CLASP (Consortium of Local Authorities Special Programme) was originally intended as a schools building project (ironically enough, given the current fustercluck). Its suitability for use in areas affected by mining subsidence was a welcome, but beneficial side effect.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am sorry if I have offended some engineering professionals. But some of those who have objected to my comment have then gone on to reinforce my point. The decision makers in Government (national and government) are bean-counters and politicians, not technically competent in building.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And people ask - why do some grown ups play with toy trains.........because mine run to time, are not overcrowded and aren't surrounded by crumbling infrastructure and fabric of society.

I'm glad to hear you've checked the roof of your railway room and it's safe 😛

[woodenhead]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm glad to hear you've checked the roof of your railway room and it's safe 😛

Being on the second floor it is also safe from all flooding except Biblical 😄

[skipepsi]

12 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

CLASP (Consortium of Local Authorities Special Programme) was originally intended as a schools building project (ironically enough, given the current fustercluck). Its suitability for use in areas affected by mining subsidence was a welcome, but beneficial side effect.

One demolition recently of a clasp school I worked at was a nightmare due to its design and the volume of asbestos inside. As a non-smoker I have COPD but why?

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I am sorry if I have offended some engineering professionals. But some of those who have objected to my comment have then gone on to reinforce my point. The decision makers in Government (national and government) are bean-counters and politicians, not technically competent in building.

As you go up the ladder of hierarchy within organisations then there has to be a dilution of knowledge on every topic they are responsible for as new elements are added to your responsibility - the head of Nasa for example is a Senator, member of the Bar and was an officer in the Army - he's been into space but he is not an engineer.  He will surround himself with the knowledgable people and will take on their respective views to draw his own conclusions on direction.  Similarly the prime minister of the UK will not understand every law, be an economist, a doctor, a builder, an engineer and a train driver.

 

I think what has changed of late and was used to great effect when arguing for a particular course of action in 2016 was that we should stop listening to 'experts' and listen only to politically minded individuals when making big decisions - that was damaging. and I think was also touted at one point during early Covid too, but then they found hiding behind experts was a great defence for awful decisions.

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I am sorry if I have offended some engineering professionals. But some of those who have objected to my comment have then gone on to reinforce my point. The decision makers in Government (national and government) are bean-counters and politicians, not technically competent in building.

Pretty much everything in your post was wrong or inaccurate. When in a hole best stop digging.........

 

I do know about this issue, I've been dealing with this issue since I moved into local government 4 years ago, which is why my employer was able to confirm this week all its schools are safe in respect of RAAC, and other similar materials such as Intergrid (yes, there's more than just RAAC to worry about).

[Joseph_Pestell]

22 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Pretty much everything in your post was wrong or inaccurate. When in a hole best stop digging.........

 

I do know about this issue, I've been dealing with this issue since I moved into local government 4 years ago, which is why my employer was able to confirm this week all its schools are safe in respect of RAAC, and other similar materials such as Intergrid (yes, there's more than just RAAC to worry about).

 

Tony, I am glad that things are going well within your local authority area. I really am.

 

But that does not invalidate my original comment, which was not "wrong or inaccurate". Like you, I have worked in and with local government and I have seen so many instances of perverse decisions.

[2251]

On 05/09/2023 at 15:47, Nearholmer said:

As a footnote: another, earlier, form of lightweight concrete, used in not dissimilar ways, that I do know has caused consternation in odd applications in the railway industry, and has had to be stripped-out and replaced at considerable cost, is what I know as ‘coke breeze concrete’ (I think that’s actually a generic term and the problems relate to a specific type) made using what amounts to coke as an aggregate, a “good idea” from the 1890s. I was party to one job where a high-level walkway had been cast in it, using what amounted to corrugated iron as a left-in-situ form work. The decomposition of the clinker in a damp atmosphere releases corrosive products which then eat the form work and lightweight reinforcing, leaving an effectively unsupported matrix of very fragile stuff. This is the sort of thing: https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/journals/built-environment-journal/when-outmoded-building-materials-strike-back-.html

 

 

 

Coke-breeze was one of the earlier forms of concrete-iron floors. Coke-breeze was a by-product of the town gas process. The aggregate made using it produced a lightweight, weak product, high in sulphur (obviously not ideal with the structural ironwork embedded in it). 

 

For anyone with access, there is a very interesting article in The Structural Engineer, May 2016, pp 44-47, summarising the history of floors constructed from iron/ steel and concrete .

[ess1uk]

On 05/09/2023 at 16:02, Darius43 said:

I would like to applaud Nearholmer’s response above.  I started my career in Civil Engineering in 1986 as a graduate engineer with the Property Services Agency (PSA) - part of the UK Government Department of the Environment.  The PSA comprised engineers, architects, project managers, QSs, site control resident engineers and clerks of works and a whole load of specialists in various aspects of building and construction.  Training was excellent with in-house residential courses and there were technical standards for many aspects of design of public buildings and defence infrastructure.   The PSA built an operational RAF airfield in the Falkland Islands from nothing in 80 weeks.

 

80 weeks to touchdown
 

It was an amazing organisation, but it was privatised in 1992 and the expertise spread out over many companies or mainly lost to early retirement.   There is a newly formed Government Property Agency that is starting, in a small way, to look like the PSA.

 

Yet one more case of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

Darius

 

 

thanks for the link to that video, really interesting, i spent time at MPA

[Southernman46]

Conversely - as an apprentice I was involved in converting the former Victoria Signalbox (1982) into the SR Bridge Engineers' offices. Built between the wars - it was VERY solidly built - red-faced blue engineering bricks with a solid reinforced concrete 1st floor & roof - just to get conduit saddles fixed to walls & ceilings - it would be literally one drill bit per hole and even then it would often require a star drill to do it by hand too. 😲