London Terminus's ECS (LMR / ER) did the ECS loco habitually bank the departing train

[DCB]

Did the ECS loco habitually bank the departing  train  from.London Terminus's  (LMR / ER)

I saw a picture of an LMS  2-6-4T Banking a train out of St Pancras which set me thinking.     Did the incoming ECS loco stay with the train until departure  or was it somehow extracted.    Did the ECS loco bank the train away or did it follow to the platform end as seems to have happened outside London.     Also how long before departure did the ECS arrive in the platform at various London Termini.   

Edited September 6, 2023 by DCB

[Wickham Green too]

The incoming loco certainly helped at Victoria as the departure often needed a bunk up Grosvenor Bank - I'm not sure whether the signalling was configured to let the banker beyond the platform end though. Most other London termini were flatter or - like KX - the bank started a little further out.

[Cwmtwrch]

Suburban platforms at Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street had loco spurs at the outer ends, so arriving locos, whether on ECS or a service train, stayed at the buffers while a new loco attached at the other end, then moved to the loco spur after the train departed, ready to attach to the stock of the next arrival, which it would take out as ECS or a service train. Electrification meant that the spurs became redundant.

 

Locomotives moving to the platform starter immediately behind a departing train was standard procedure at all termini, so that signalmen could see it was there, either by eye or because it occupied a track circuit. Delay in moving, or not moving at all, presented a risk of the signalman forgetting that the loco was there and permitting another train to enter the platform, with unpredictable but probably unpleasant results.

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/09/2023 at 17:08, Cwmtwrch said:

Suburban platforms at Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street had loco spurs at the outer ends, so arriving locos, whether on ECS or a service train, stayed at the buffers while a new loco attached at the other end, then moved to the loco spur after the train departed, ready to attach to the stock of the next arrival, which it would take out as ECS or a service train. Electrification meant that the spurs became redundant.

 

Locomotives moving to the platform starter immediately behind a departing train was standard procedure at all termini, so that signalmen could see it was there, either by eye or because it occupied a track circuit. Delay in moving, or not moving at all, presented a risk of the signalman forgetting that the loco was there and permitting another train to enter the platform, with unpredictable but probably unpleasant results.

Usually subject to specifc Instructions at the busier termint.  For example at Paddington the Signalman had to be advised if an engine was to be left on the stop blocks and his permission had to be obtained before it was later allowed to move towards the signal at the end of the platform.

[Grovenor]

Euston must be the worst case of a bank off the platform end, enough that it was originally provided with cable haulage.

But at one of the rebuilds the backing out roads were provided so that the coaches could be  reversed into the platforms by the train engine so there would not be a loco in there to do any banking.

Refer http://www.norgrove.me.uk/signalling/plans/Euston-a.gif

 

[bécasse]

I remember as a train-spotting youngster on a first visit to (the old) Euston being very puzzled by the sight of these ECS trains descending Camden Bank without any loco on the front. (Albeit that the train engine was attached at the rear.)

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

I remember as a train-spotting youngster on a first visit to (the old) Euston being very puzzled by the sight of these ECS trains descending Camden Bank without any loco on the front. (Albeit that the train engine was attached at the rear.)

Propulsion was part of the cause of a collision (1949), though the ECS working was propelled by a 3F 0-6-0T, and the train it hit was awaiting its loco.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=888

[Grovenor]

Quite an eye opening report on the complexities of operating a busy terminal with antiquated signalling.

[Rugd1022]

On 09/09/2023 at 21:11, The Stationmaster said:

Usually subject to specifc Instructions at the busier termint.  For example at Paddington the Signalman had to be advised if an engine was to be left on the stop blocks and his permission had to be obtained before it was later allowed to move towards the signal at the end of the platform.

 

Yes Mike, at the stop block end there were telephones direct to old Oak panel, 2905 was the number as I recall, we'd ask permission to drop down the signal at the other end and inform the Bobbie if there was a change to the next booked move. On a related note, the small banner repeaters under the canopies of the platforms at Padd were often a godsend.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Propulsion was part of the cause of a collision (1949), though the ECS working was propelled by a 3F 0-6-0T, and the train it hit was awaiting its loco.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=888

Yes, never a clev er mov e in man t resxpects before back-to-back radios were available. as it was well nigh impossob;e for the Shunter to comply with the Rules.   I did it one day when Shnuting at Paddington during an unofficial strike - propel in from Paddington Sidings (the post 1967 ones so west of Ranelagh Bridge) and even with a shiot train as it snaked through the various. crossovers it was impossible for only one Shunter to see the Diver or Secondman at the same tome as the leading end of the shunt.  Easy enough to get the route set right through and confirmed by the Signalman before moving off bur you also lost sight of either the Driver or the leading end as the move went under the footbridge in the station.  Only way to control the mpve was to reach round for the butterfly valve uf you needed to stop quickly.

 

 

[Grovenor]

In the case in question the loco was not exactly 'propelling' the report makes clear that the driver just released the brakes and had no need to open the throttle as gravity moved the train. The shunter was controlling the brakes from his end and had the train sliding before the impact.

[BrushVeteran]

I can distinctly remember BRCW Type 2's banking the Peaks out of St.Pancras, I used to watch them in there whilst my Uncle was obtaining my Grandad's monthly free coal ration from St.Pancras Goods!  Oh those were the good old days!

[Rugd1022]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes, never a clev er mov e in man t resxpects before back-to-back radios were available. as it was well nigh impossob;e for the Shunter to comply with the Rules.   I did it one day when Shnuting at Paddington during an unofficial strike - propel in from Paddington Sidings (the post 1967 ones so west of Ranelagh Bridge) and even with a shiot train as it snaked through the various. crossovers it was impossible for only one Shunter to see the Diver or Secondman at the same tome as the leading end of the shunt.  Easy enough to get the route set right through and confirmed by the Signalman before moving off bur you also lost sight of either the Driver or the leading end as the move went under the footbridge in the station.  Only way to control the mpve was to reach round for the butterfly valve uf you needed to stop quickly.

 

 

 

When we took the empty newspaper vans up to Padd on nights the Bristol and Swansea sets would often be combined, meaning once in the platform (usually 8 or 9 next to the taxi / road way) the A Pilot loco (usually 08 944) would drop on the rear and have to split one portion off. This would often be sixteen or seventeen bogie vehicles in total meaning a long shunt out and back into another empty platform, to do this we'd have one or sometimes two extra shunters assisting from strategic points along the rake, using their Bardic lamps to control the moves out and back in again. Lots of odd moves went on at Padd during the night, during particularly busy periods when some of the old hand drivers would disappear early and there was no management about it was left to us secondman to gather together any 'dead' (driverless in other words!) locos left on the blocks and take them in convoy back to Old Oak. Five locos together was the rule back then, but one at least one occasion a couple of the lads took seven back to shed to save having to come back for the last lot.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Rugd1022

[roythebus1]

In the 1970s there was a backing in incident at Euston. We were told about it in the traction trainee school so it must be true.

A new Carribean shunter was at the leading end of a train being propelled by 3000hp of electric loco on the other end, the instruction was that when approaching the stops the shunter would apply the brake. After the big Bang, the driver went to see if said shunter was ok and why he hadn't applied the brake. "De ting won't turn no more"... he'd applied the hand brake, not the train brake!

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

In the 1970s there was a backing in incident at Euston. We were told about it in the traction trainee school so it must be true.

A new Carribean shunter was at the leading end of a train being propelled by 3000hp of electric loco on the other end, the instruction was that when approaching the stops the shunter would apply the brake. After the big Bang, the driver went to see if said shunter was ok and why he hadn't applied the brake. "De ting won't turn no more"... he'd applied the hand brake, not the train brake!

Oops - and some potentially  damaged wheels to go with the other damage.  Stop block collision with some force so the entire train to lift to check for damage.

 

There was nasty little one at Old Oak where a brand new, delivery run, HST hit the blocks in the Carriage Shed - on the only road that happened to have a massive great stone built backing to the stop block.  Entire set had to immediately go back to works for the coaches to be lifted and other stiff checked but only after it had been checked as safe to run.  There was a stop block collision at Paddington but that was an arriving trains with a 1000 on the front, very low speed fortunately but several dozen passengers needed First Aud treatment and assessment.

[Rugd1022]

41 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Oops - and some potentially  damaged wheels to go with the other damage.  Stop block collision with some force so the entire train to lift to check for damage.

 

There was nasty little one at Old Oak where a brand new, delivery run, HST hit the blocks in the Carriage Shed - on the only road that happened to have a massive great stone built backing to the stop block.  Entire set had to immediately go back to works for the coaches to be lifted and other stiff checked but only after it had been checked as safe to run.  There was a stop block collision at Paddington but that was an arriving trains with a 1000 on the front, very low speed fortunately but several dozen passengers needed First Aud treatment and assessment.

 

As a lowly traction trainee at Stonebridge Park I recall our instructor Tony Browning confessed to smacking the stop block in platform 2 at Padd with 47 026 when he was a secondman at Old Oak. In late '83 one of the passed men at Old Oak propelled a HST power car through the roller shutter door of number 10 road in the Factory. I can remember stuff like this as though it were only yesterday, but I have no idea what I had for dinner last Thursday!

 

I remember one night in December '83 when I was with Derek 'Fangs' Dyer on the up and down empty stock moves with 50 033, we were on the block in platform 9 and with the aid of two of the shunters we propelled an empty rake up to Paddington Sidings, ran round them there and took them via the flyover back to Old Oak, all to save the A Pilot crew a trip. Old Fangs was always up for doing things like that, and the favour was usually returned at some point later on. Another late night move happened a week or so later in a similar fashion, we had a 47 on the block in platform 1 on a rake of newspaper vans, we backed them into 1a, the old parcels platform, ran round them then propelled them back into platform 1.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Rugd1022

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/09/2023 at 11:54, Rugd1022 said:

 

As a lowly traction trainee at Stonebridge Park I recall our instructor Tony Browning confessed to smacking the stop block in platform 2 at Padd with 47 026 when he was a secondman at Old Oak. In late '83 one of the passed men at Old Oak propelled a HST power car through the roller shutter door of number 10 road in the Factory. I can remember stuff like this as though it were only yesterday, but I have no idea what I had for dinner last Thursday!

 

I remember one night in December '83 when I was with Derek 'Fangs' Dyer on the up and down empty stock moves with 50 033, we were on the block in platform 9 and with the aid of two of the shunters we propelled an empty rake up to Paddington Sidings, ran round them there and took them via the flyover back to Old Oak, all to save the A Pilot crew a trip. Old Fangs was always up for doing things like that, and the favour was usually returned at some point later on. Another late night move happened a week or so later in a similar fashion, we had a 47 on the block in platform 1 on a rake of newspaper vans, we backed them into 1a, the old parcels platform, ran round them then propelled them back into platform 1.

Derek was a smashing bloke and seemed to have been well resected by everybody despite his nickname.  I'll have to dig out my OOC Open Day phot which includes him in the cab background.

 

Photo now found.  'Derek (Fangs') is in the background behind the left shoulder of Traction Inspector ernie Stewart while Mrs Stationmaster adds a touch of femininity to the scene.  I can't remember who the Driver was on the 'Castle' that (I think it might have been a No.1 Link man?) Derek was the Fireman while Ernie was, obviously, the Inspector.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[adb968008]

Last time I saw steam banking in London was c2013 45305 gave 34046 a big shove out of Victoria.. though it was attached.

i have seen 45305 banking 6201 out of Victoria in 2011 after arriving off a Kent circular with 45305,  6201 reversed onto the train (sans support coach), and headed the train south and west, whilst 45305 eased off after grosvenor bridge and waited before it went to SL,  (see below, note no support coach on 45305s banking move either)

 

 

Whilst not quite the same thing, but if your at Paddington tomorrow night 45596 arrives on p1 at 2115, whilst 34046 will arrive on p2 at 2128… both leave ecs circa 2145 -2150 with steam locos on the back..

 

Looks exciting doesnt it…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:PAD/2023-09-16/2115-2200?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt
 

even better with Route 38 being Routemasters and RTs all day too..

https://www.londonbusmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/38-TT-v1.pdf
 

https://www.londonbusmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/38-Bus-list.pdf

Edited September 15, 2023 by adb968008