A Tale of 3 Ex-Kirk 4mm LNER Coaches

[MikeTrice]

The idea for this topic started with the announcement that the Ex-Kirk range of 4mm LNER Coach kits were being re-released by Phoenix Precision Paints.

 

In the past I have tended to avoid these kits as there are a number of issues around the end and roof profile which to me spoil the look of the finished models. I had successfully cross matched more accurate ends and roofs to Kirk sides but never attempted to try and alter the original mouldings. A quick experiment with some old mouldings proved to me that it was possible.

 

I then thought "I wonder if anyone has really gone to town with these kits?" What I mean by this is comparing the mouldings to prototype drawings/photographs, highlighting any issues, and then doing something about it. I managed to scrape together enough mouldings from my bits box to put together a D186 Open Third (Kirk 8853). This proved to be my prototype build where I could try out different ideas.

 

If I was to do this properly I really needed to attempt a Brake coach with side corridor which would be more representative of a typical kit. I managed to find a D212 LNER Corridor Brake Third (Kirk 8841) for a reasonable price on ebay. This features in my main build and features as many original parts as possible with a minimum number of third party additions.

 

Having neared completion of this kit I thought "I really should get a second Corridor Brake Third and build it as supplied, warts and all". Fortunately another kit appear on ebay which I snapped up. This coach would then be used for direct comparisons.

 

So I ended up building 3 of the old Kirk kits as seen below.

 

From the back there is the cobbled together Open Third D186, the heavily reworked Corridor Brake Third D212 and in front a Corridor Brake Third D212 as supplied.

 

My intention is to add a series of posts to the topic detailing step by step what I have done to each one. I will also point out where the various mouldings have been improved over the years.

 

Finally this has taken far more effort than I originally thought and I have sort of lost my mojo somewhat. I am hoping that starting to put my build up on RMWeb will give me the motivation to finish the project.

 

 

[MikeTrice]

The Kirk LNER Corridor Brake Third kit is to D212 as shown below:

 

Scale drawings are available from Isinglass Models and the prototype is featured in the books of drawings by Nick Campling.

 

Here is the kit laid out to show the parts supplied. My version was described as a "Super" kit complete with Maygib Wheels (not shown):

 

The two ends supplied are the same width but one of the sprues includes a guards ducket:

 

Although the ends are the same width the reverse side shows that the locations for the sides are correctly narrower on the brake end. This is correct for Gresley Brake vehicles:

 

Bogies are supplied and the moulding includes torpedo vents and single battery boxes. It should be noted that the bogies have since been retooled to make assemble easier. These are the originals:

 

Other underframe parts are included:

 

The sides are supplied in two sections which can be fixed together to provide the prototypical rebate over the guard's portion.

 

As can be seen a lot of the mouldings have heavy sprues attached to them and I used a razor saw to remove them:

 

In addition to a craft knife I also found a set of filing sticks on ebay in various grits and these have proved invaluable:

 

I also used a file to clean up the kit mouldings and in some cases, styrene sheet which tended to clog up the file teeth. A small wire brush is therefore handy:

 

After a quick brush the file has been cleaned ready for its next use:

 

I have used two solvents in the builds, each with different properties. The Deluxe Plastic Magic has been used wherever possible and is a quick grab solvent. The Di-Limonene on the other hand is far more gentle and gives more time for positioning and causes less warping of thin styrene sections:

 

The build will be split into sections comprising
01 Original Kit
02 Ends
03 Sides
04 Roof and body assembly
05 Underframe
06 Bogies
07 Interior
08 Final detailing

 

Most of the modifications presented are optional. It all depends how fastidious the builder wants to be and how much effort they want to expend.

[MikeTrice]

01 Original Kit: Basics

 

The second kit I bought on ebay was a very early one, which proved interesting. The instructions were defined as "Temporary" and were very basic:

 

For the brake vehicles the guard's portion should be narrower than the main parts and the Kirk kits include toggled pieces to join the two parts of the side together with a step:

 

Now I could join the rest of the side using a straight edge to ensure alignment:

 

Have a close look at the previous photograph and see if you can spot an issue. I didn't until I tried to assemble the opposite side and discovered I had two identical brake mouldings rather than handed sides! I thought no problem, I will build the missing side from styrene and spent a couple of hours doing just that. Note I have almost finished building it:

 

It then dawned on me that it might be easier to try a cut and shut so out came the razor saw and errant side split up into sections:

 

After rearranging:

 

And finally glued together. The right hand end for the guard's ducket has also had the central beading removed:

 

In all it took me around 1/2hr and I really should have thought of it earlier.

 

The side was glued to the wider end using a pair of squares. I use these a lot as they are so convenient:

 

I mentioned previously that the guard's end of a Gresley coach is narrower than the passenger portion. The Kirk ends have the rebates further in on the brake end however strangely if assembled as supplied would end up with bits sticking out at the sides:

 

There is no mention of this in the instructions and I should have just gone ahead with them as supplied however I could not bring myself to do it. Instead I filed back to extra bits to match the side thickness:

 

From the front the outermost beading is now too close to the edge but I left as is:

 

Early Kirk kits did not come with moulded seats but instead contained what appeared to be lengths of curtain rail. My first impression of these were they we too small but comparing the strip to a later moulded seat they are quite close:

 

I mangaed to find some moulded seats in my bits box so used those to construct the compartments:

 

Note that the corridor screen is too long on the right and the corridor itself is extremely narrow:

 

In fact the resulting corridor is a mere 3mm wide, i.e. 9 prototype inches:

 

Torpedo vents are included on the bogie mouldings and these are quite fiddly and fragile. I think I broke all the middle ones trying to remove them:

 

The ventilators have been glued to the roof mouding as instructed:

[MikeTrice]

Original Kit: Basics Part 2

 

The kit comprises a floor in two parts which need to be glued together. A side and end have been solvented in place against the wide end. Solebars have been added although the kit instructions do not give a clear idea where they should go:

 

With the sides in place the Guard's end was attached. Note there is a gap between the floor and the end:

 

I started to add one of the truss mouldings aligning it with the details on the base of the floor. The instructions say this goes behind the solebars which is actually too narrow (which I will cover when looking at the rebuilt coach):

 

However because the floor is now not central on the body the trussing is incorrectly aligned to the solebar rivet detail:

[MikeTrice]

Original Kit: Bogies

 

The early design of bogies are quite fiddly to assemble. The sprue where it attaches to the top plate is quite thick:

 

If you turn the bogie moulding over you will see that there should be a projection that fits over the side frame:

 

Using the razor saw I made sure to be careful where I cut:

 

Turning it over again reveals what has to be filed down:

 

The spring buffers are moulded separately and it is easier to drill them out before removing from the sprue:

 

These are fixed in place appropriately:

 

The axle holes were drilled out using a 2mm drill ready to receive turned brass bearings:

 

Drilling was done by hand using a very useful tool bought many years ago from SM Tools in London:

 

The spring buffers are tiny and one ended up being consummed by the carpet monster. It was replaced with a sliver of Evergreen tube:

 

Assembly of the bogies was carried out by solventing the sideframes to the centres of the top plate only, leaving the ends unfixed. When fully set the ends could be sprung apart to add the wheels then solvented closed.

[MikeTrice]

Original Kit: Complete(ish).

 

Here are some views of the complete kit, or as far as I intend to take it:

 

 

As stated in the instructions battery boxes have been glued back to back and stuck on one side only. Not prototypical:

 

Some views of the underframe. The positions for the various fitting were the wrong way round but as the instructions do not mention this I did as implied by the mouding:

 

There is not way the vac cylinder and hangers would have fitted as designed so I ended up moving them to more prototypical positions albeit incorrectly handed:

 

The early bogies moulding do not look bad:

 

The narrowed end:

 

My cut and shut side:

 

Note poor fit between roof and ends:

 

 

Although the corridor is narrow it is not so apparent when assembled:

 

 

Note the apparent gap between the roof and the sides caused by a moulding draft. This will be rectified in the reworked build.

 

 

[MikeTrice]

Original Kit: Retooled Bogies.

 

The retooled bogies are far more robust and much easier to assemble:

 

Those pesky spring buffers are now part of the top plate moulding:

 

There is a lip on the lower edge of the top plate that need scraping back:

 

Bearing holes did not need opening up on these. As before only the centre bolster was glued then when set the ends prised apart to admit the wheels. I used Hornby Coach wheels. Interestingly although easier to assemble the sideframes are not as detailed as they now omit the spring detail above the axleboxes behind the sideframes.:

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[31A]

Thank you for this very interesting series of posts.  “Back in the day” I made up quite a lot of these kits and after I’d done a few, I’d come up with various improvements both in terms of construction and also to improve appearance, so I’ll look forward to seeing what you come up with in your future builds!

[coronach]

Likewise. I’ve constructed several Kirk Gresley corridor coaches over the years - some look better than others. Here is a corridor 1st at Whinburgh. I think I fitted Bachmann bogies and replaced the welded under frame with home made truss rods. The model shows up the incorrect body side profile of the Hornby Gresley corridor 3rd ahead if it. 

 

Spending time fitting flush glazing is worthwhile but tedious, particularly the vestibule coaches with sliding top lights.  The interface between the sides, ends and roof is tricky I find.  I look forward to seeing what you achieve. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by coronach

[chris p bacon]

I built a few in the late 80's early 90's before starting to notice the they weren't quite right but enjoyed the builds. I have a few left to build in the pile and was going to change the ends and re profile the roof following the recent discussion and improve the under frames. Some might say "why bother" but I find them enjoyable to build. 

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Introduction.

 

Before criticising the kits as supplied a couple of prototype photographs.

 

Here is a standard 9'0" wide carriage end. Note the inward taper of the end above the waist and the shape where the roof meets the end, a shallow ellipse:

 

As mentioned previously Brake vehicles are narrower over the guard's portion being only 8'6" wide. Note that, unlike the standard end, the brake end does not taper above the waist:

 

So how do the Kirk ends compare?:

 

In the above image an extract from a GA of a standard end has been reduced down to 4mm and a Kirk end placed over it for comparison. It can be seen that the top edge of the end is more a simple arc rather than ellipse. The end is also fractionally too narrow.

 

Taking one of the supplied corridor connectors and comparing it with the drawing it is too short:

 

Clearly there is a lot to gain by correcting the end dimensions and shape. For this I created a template from 20thou styrene based on the drawing:

 

I find the pen above with its fine nib very useful for marking out white styrene.

 

On the rear of the template I added a strip of styrene so the end would fit under a Kirk end to determine the height:

 

The attached PDF when printed at 100% will result in a 4mm representation of the standard Gresley ends.

 

Kirk End Profile 4mm v17.pdf

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[iak]

A fascinating topic - bravo 👏

[t-b-g]

I recall showing these before but as this thread is specifically about Kirk kits I will show them again. Fairly poor snaps taken using the camera on my tablet but there is an LNER version, which was done by the late Malcolm Crawley, plus a BR liveried one I did for the late Roy Jackson's Retford.

 

It has fooled one or two into thinking it was an etched kit, so the work involved to fill in the panelling and flush glaze it has certainly made a difference.

 

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Standard End - Part 1

 

I have tried various methods to reprofile the supplied Kirk ends and what is presented here is probably the easiest.

 

As mentioned previously the standard supplied end is too narrow so the first thing I do is file it down in width until it matches the rebate edges on the rear:

 

Strips of styrene can then be added fixed in place with Plastic Magic:

 

Included in the pdf with the last post is an inner profile for a 9'0" end. I tend to print these off, stick them to styrene with a glue stick, then cut them out to the printed outline:

 

The back of the moulding is filed flat and the new inner profile glued centrally in place:

 

Next we need to address the incorrect height and top profile. There is a small upturn at the corner of the mouldings which needs to be removed (this may have occurred when narrowing the sides). Strips of 60thou styrene are now solvented along the top curve. Note that I use the trusty engineer's squares to help hold everything while the Plastic Magic does its thing:

 

With the first strip set a send one is added on top:

 

At this point I now use the previously produced profile template to mark in the new revised top edge:

 

Reverse the end and file the taper along the sides until the distance from the inner profile to the edge of the moulding matches the side (1.5mm). In the photo only the right hand one has been done:

 

Both sides have now been filed down:

 

The new additions to the end and any moulded detail can now be filed off:

 

On the Kirk kit as supplied the cornice strip at the end of coach is represented by the roof overhang. In my solution it needs to be reinstated on the end moulding. The easiest way I have found of doing this is using two strips of 20thou x 20thou styrene. This is done in stages fixing the centre with Plastic Magic:

 

With the centre fixed work along the cornice curving it to match the profile but ensure a milder solvent such as di-limonene is used as the Plastic Magic tends to snap the styrene strip:

 

Finally the corners can be curved and fixed in place:

 

Once set a second strip can be added inboard of the first:

 

Out of interest have look at the above photograph. The black line on the end denotes the true centre of the moulding. The Kirk moulded end door is off centre!

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Standard End - Part 2

 

Beading is restored to the end using Plustruct 0.4mm styrene rod. I initially attempted to scrape this into a half circular shape but no longer bother:

 

Positions are marked to remove the section of beading to accepts the lighting fittings:

 

A section of 2mm Plastruct styrene rod is sliced off and solvented in place:

 

Once the solvent has set the backing plate can be filed flat to the beading as shown on the left hand fitting in this photo:

 

Slices of Plastruct 1.6mm styrene rod are then added to the centres of the backing plates and once set also filed to size. Strips of styrene have been added to received the jumper cables:

 

Jumper cables are fashioned from Plastruct 0.4mm rod by careful bending with my fingers:

 

After trimming to length they can be solvented in place:

 

Finally a dimension plate can be added from 10thou styrene:

 

Note: Even if you do not want to bother reprofiling the supplied Kirk ends you might still want to add the jumper cables to the moulding!

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Brake End

 

Reprofiling the brake end is basically similar to reprofiling a standard end.

 

As mentioned when building a standard Kirk kit the supplied brake ends are the same width as a normal end but the rebates for the sides are narrower:

 

If the end is used unaltered there will be an unsightly overhang when the sides are fitted which would need to be removed:

 

As we are reprofiling anyway the first job is to fill the side trenches and file the back flat:

 

A brake end inner profile is then added:

 

As before the roof line is extended upwards however there is no need to widen the mouldings as the brake ends are narrower anyway:

 

All end detail and upper profile has now been sanded:

 

The sides of the end can now be filed to be 1.5mm from the inner end profile. This will result in leaving an overhang at the cornice which is prototypical:

 

 

As before a new cornice is applied from two strips of 20x20thou styrene and the end beading is restored using 0.4mm Plastruct rod:

 

Remaining details are added however this time the dimension plate bisects one of the vertical beading:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Sides - Part 1.

 

When looked at under magnification you will note that the sides contain quite a marked moulding draft as seen to the right of the side. This will, if not addressed, affect how the roof sits on the side:

 

The first thing I do it flatten the moulding draft by rubbing the side moulding along a length of wet and dry:

 

With the top edge now square to the sides a strip of 20thou styrene is glued along it. Note that the strip is wider than the side:

 

To file down the top strip to width masking tape is applied to protect the various projections on the moulded sides. I learnt this the hard way:

 

The new strip can now be carefully filed to the width of the side:

 

The door ventilator hoods on Gresley coaches taper vertically whereas the moulded ones don't:

 

A simple improvement is to a file a taper on the moulded sides:

 

When examining a moulded side there are also a nmber of moulding drafts around the window opening. This has the effect of making the window apertures look smaller than they should. A big improvement to there appearance can be made by filing the draft back effectively enlarging the apertures. In the following photo the right hand window has been treated, the left one has not:

 

The difference is not really apparent until you look at the back:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Sides - Part 2.

 

The upper panelling on Gresley coaches is quite shallow with the vertical beading measuring 3/8". Kirk mouldings on the other hand have quite deep recessed panels so I decided to address this by adding styrene to the recesses. First off I had to measure the depth of the recesses as accurately as I could and marked the mouldings accordingly. Needless to say the depths were not consistant:

 

For the Guard's portion I used 15thou and for the passenger parts 10thou.

 

Individual panels were cut, trimmed to be a tight fit, and solvented in place using di-limonene:

 

It is slow but steady work and visually I think worth the effort:

 

The Guard's ducket supplied with the kit was a bit crude and only had one window one end. The prototype is not quite symettrical either:

 

A new ducket was fashioned from styrene by first of all cutting a rectangle represeting the inner face then adding strips top and bottom:

 

These  were filed back:

 

Now a smaller rectangle representing the outer face was cut and glued in place:

 

The sides were then tapered accordingly:

 

Note: I would have been better off making the outer face slightly larger then filing it back which would avoid the seam line!

 

Finally two small strips of styrene can be added to the rear of the windows and filed back when set:

 

The finished ducket in place:

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Sides - Part 3

 

Individual steps presented here are all optional. The following is an example.

 

The windows on Gresley coaches have frames inset into the sides. The Kirk kits ignore this so the windows can look a bit odd:

 

It is possible to correct this be adding strips of 10thou styrene to the sliding vent apertures. These are done over width to be filed back later. First the outer window is treated:

 

And then the inner sliding window:

 

Two thinner strips are added to complete the additions:

 

All over width strips are then filed back to match the sides:

 

Does it make a difference? Here is a photo comparing the unaltered and altered openings:

 

The opening for the toilet window needs treating to match:

 

The finished sides ready for bulding into a coach:

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by MikeTrice

[coronach]

Thank you for sharing your techniques Mike. Very inspiring - although I don’t know if I would have the patience to tackle the windows. I anticipate that this will result in an excellent and pretty accurate model of the real thing. 

[t-b-g]

It is very good of you Mike to share your techniques in such a detailed, easy to follow way. I still have a stash of Kirk kits and although my current modelling is pre-grouping GCR there is always a chance I may do some more in the future and I will certainly be referring to your photos and description if and when I do. You have taken things quite a bit further than Malcolm and I did and with worthwhile results.

 

I adopted a different method for the window vents. I cut the Kirk ones out and put a single pane of glazing in then made new ones fixed directly to glazing. You don't get the inset glazing for the sliding vents but I think it may be a bit quicker and easier to do.

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Body - Part 1

 

The recommended way in the Kirk instructions is to build the sides around the floor then finally glue the roof on. I felt I would prefer to build the body/roof as a separate unit and have the floor/underframe detachable. At some point in time I decided to cut off the buffer beams from the ends so they could be fitted to the underframe unit. The following photographs showing the body assembly have had the buffer beams removed which presents a flat base to build off.

 

Before assembling the body I needed to create a special joiner for the brake end to passenger sections. This was done by cutting the two sections from styrene and solventing together:

 

 

This inner end was then attached to one of the Guard's sides using the floor to space it the correct distance from the bottom. Once again my trusty engineer's squares were used:

 

With the square removed you can see the floor being used as a spacer. Solvent is being kept well away from the joint:

 

With the first joint set the rest of the parts can be added forming a basic box:

 

The passenger section was assembled around one of the ends. Here the second side is being aligned:

 

The two halves can now be joined together. The squares are used to do the first side joint:

 

A square and ruler are then used for the second side:

 

Note that for this assembly I am using a flat surface rather than my cutting mat.

 

 

Time to start putting the body together. At some point in time I decided to cut off the buffer beams so they could be fitted to the underfrmae.

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Body - Part 2

 

Interestingly Kirk roofs have obviously gone through some changes over time (more on this later). Any projections were filed flat:

 

It is now time to offer the roof up to the body and determine how much has to be cut from each end so the roof sits down between the ends. The trusty razor saw is back in use:

 

With the cut end tidied up a section of rainstrip is cut back. In hindsite I later increased the amount:

 

Before glueing the roof to the sides/ends I put some temporary cross pieces in place especially with the Open Third:

 

The Brake Third was also given one across the passenger section:

 

The roof can now be solvented into position ensuring a good joint between the roof and sides:

 

It is interesting to note the difference in the side view of the domed roof end as supplied and potentially after making good:

 

When all is set the temporary stretches can be removed from the body.

 

 

 

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Body - Part 3

 

With everything set solidly Fine White Milliput is mixed together and smoothed to fill the gap between the roof and reprofiled ends:

 

When the Millput is cured it can be sanded down. I have not made a brilliant job of this so will need to finese later:

 

 

I have added a couple of squares of styrene to make good the cornice:

 

Now seemed a good time to try and determine the roof centre line. A compass wass set as close as possible then two marks measured from both sides:

 

The centre line falls between the two marks:

 

To restore the end step to the roof a piece of styrene had its edge chamfered:

 

Then trimmed to width:

 

Cut to length and solvented to the roof using Plastic Magic:

 

Here is where I lengthened the cutting back of the original moulded rainstrip:

 

New rainstrip is added from 10thou styrene strip and solvented in place:

 

After tidying up:

 

Pieces of 20 x20 thou styrene were used to add the cornice plates over the doors. These should be 4'8" (18.667mm) for double doors and 2'10" (11.333mm) for single doors:

 

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Body - Part 4

 

Using a scanned copy of one of Nick Campling's drawings the torpedo vent positions are marked on the centre line of the roof:

 

The supplied Kirk torpedo vents to my eye look too small. Likewise I feel Comet ones are too large. I have recently discovered some really nice 3D printed ones on ebay from dealer https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/floyd_kraemer?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l2559  These take a 1mm hole to fit so appropriate holes were drilled in the roof:

 

Each vent was fixed in place with a small dab of epoxy and alignment along to roof checked:

 

Here is a cruel enlargement of one of the vents complete with stray bit of fluff. Note the visible daylight:

 

At around this point I noticed another difference in the roof mouldings. The one used on the Open Third which I assume is a later moulding features the destination boards, the earlier ones do not:

Edited September 23, 2023 by MikeTrice