A Tale of 3 Ex-Kirk 4mm LNER Coaches

[roythebus1]

When I used to be in the cast metal bus kit business many years ago the brass patterns usually had over-thick beading for a reason. At that time most modellers didn't possess an airbrush, relying on over-thick coats of paint. when thsi was done, it reduced the thickness of the beading by quite a bit!

 

For bogies, try and get hold of some of the ABS LNER bogie kits, they are superb. Produced by the late Adrian Swain, I'm not sure who has the moulds and patterns for them now. I've got a few of those bogie kits lying around.

[2750Papyrus]

A  very interesting and informative thread, Mike, especially for those not comfortable with etched metal.  Would it be possible to give approximate times for each modification so we can assess trade-offs?

[iak]

Would some of these modifications be applicable to the 51ft stock?

I refer to the panels and brake sections...

The end profiles could be corrected, using the MJT ends as templates? 

Most of the kits I have are 51ft ones, destined for my CLC project. 

 

[MikeTrice]

3 hours ago, iak said:

Would some of these modifications be applicable to the 51ft stock?

I refer to the panels and brake sections...

The end profiles could be corrected, using the MJT ends as templates? 

Most of the kits I have are 51ft ones, destined for my CLC project. 

 

The end profiles are much better with the 51ft stock other than the inward slope above the waist being missing. Likewise the panels would benefit from being filled to reduce their sunken appearance.

[MikeTrice]

18 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

For bogies, try and get hold of some of the ABS LNER bogie kits, they are superb. Produced by the late Adrian Swain, I'm not sure who has the moulds and patterns for them now. I've got a few of those bogie kits lying around.

I agree, the ABS LNER bogie kits are superb, however an objective in these builds is to use as much of the supplied parts as practical and although fiddly the bogies supplied are not bad. The only areas I have used replacement 3rd party parts are MJT LNER Buffers and Floyd Kraemer Torpedo Vents. All other additions/alterations have been done using styrene.

[MikeTrice]

17 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Would it be possible to give approximate times for each modification so we can assess trade-offs?

Sounds reasonable. None of the modifications to date are particularly long winded but it does not help that sometimes I am waiting for solvent to set before continuing. Will try and add something either as a postscript or editing the earlier posts. At the moment I like the sound of a postscript.

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 1

 

The two halves of the underframe are glued together:

 

Checking the underframe against the body I needed to add styrene to widen it:

 

Evergreen 156  .060" x .125" (1.5 x 3.2mm) strip was used to provide a 1.5mm spacer to fix the solebar positions at the bogie mounting point and a strip layed flat aligned with a ruler fixed along the centre:

 

The solebars have a rebate on their rear face. These are the bottom of the solebar with the full width portion being at the top (sorry for the poor image):

 

The solebars are now glued to the floor using a ruler to check they are straight:

 

I previously mentioned my late decision to separate the drawbeams from the ends. To restore them to their correct height after cutting with the razor saw a strip of 20thou styrene was added:

 

This was done using one of the engineer's squares and solvented in place:

 

The drawbeams now have their spacer reduced in width at the ends to fit between the solebars:

 

With the drawbeams cemented in place a couple of scraps of styrene have been added as reinforcement:

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by MikeTrice

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 2

 

As originally produced the trussing is designed to fit directly on the floor. Later mouldings appear to have been thinned allowing them to be fitted into the solebar recess. These were some of the earlier ones so I removed 1.5mm from the mount:

 

A square was then used to ensure the trussing was vertical to the floor and checking they are placed centrally against the solebar rivets:

 

The second truss moulding could then be aligned against the first using a second square and solvented into position:

 

What will not be obvious from the above images is I needed to temporarily place a strip of 1.5mm styrene to support the squares. These are just placed loosley:

 

Basically that is all the trussing supplied in the Kirk kits where in fact there should be a lot more. I add the missing bits using Plastruct 90501 3/64" (1.2mm) angle. The first addition are the cross braces measured against the truss verticals and trimmed to length:

 

The underframe is then held vertically whilst the cross trussing is layed in place and solvented. I find it easier to just glue one end and position and then when set glue the other end:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 3

 

Gresley underframes also feature diagonal cross bracing missing from the Kirk kits. Attached is a pdf reproducing in 4mm scale the underframe arrangement including templates for making the diagonal cross bracing. Lengths  of Plastruct 1.2mm angle are cut and positioned against the template using blutack:

 

A triangular scrap of 20thou styrene is solvented into the "Vee":

 

Once set they are trimmed to the cut lines. The tip of the "Vee" is then trimmed back:

 

I find it much easier to glue the diagonal bracing in place is to add a length of 30thou styrene to the centre of the coach. This is cut to be the same length as the outer dimension of the earlier cross bracing:

 

The new strip is solvented to the base of the floor and the underframe rotated into a vertical position again then the diagonal cross bracing assemblies can be dropped into position and solvented in place:

 

In addition to providing prototypical trussing the extra bracing strengthens the Kirk trussing considerably.

Kirk Underframe v01.pdf

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 4

 

Gresley corridor coaches generally had two double battery boxes each side of the underframe. These are made from 60thou styrene starting with scribing panel lines from a double length of styrene using the underframe drawing in the last post:

 

The scribed outer face is cut into two lengths and two additional pieces of 60thou laminated behind each using one of my trusty squares to align at one end:

 

With the visible edges filed smooth hinge detail is added from 10thou styrene:

 

Plastruct 1.2mm angle is cut and shaped as in the drawing:

 

And then glued to the bottom of the battery boxes, one per box. Strictly speaking there should be two per box but one is not really visible so I only use one:

 

The resulting battery boxes can then be solvented to the underframe butting up against the 60thou strip added in part 1. Again to be prototypical the supports beams should go above the cross bracing however it is easier to cut it short and once painted the subterfuge is difficult to spot:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 5

 

Before continuing note that as moulded the Kirk underframe supplied is a mirror image of what it should be so check against the drawing before continuing.

 

To get the V hangers for the cylinders in the correct position they need to have a notch cut out of the base:

 

The first V hanger can then be located against the solebar/trussing using the drawing as a guide:

 

The second V hanger is then solvented in place. The Kirk instructions are a bit vague regarding the location of these:

 

Gresley 60ft underframes feature two vacuum reservoirs not supplied with the kit but very visible on the model. These measure 1' 4 1/4" diameter and 3'8" long. I did not have any styrene rod or tube of the correct diameter so used a thinner one and wrapped 10thou styrene round it. I started by solventing the leading edge to the rod:

 

Additional solvent was then added and the rod "rolled" until the correct diameter was achieved:

 

Once dry and trimmed to length a strip of 80 thou styrene was added as a base (note the offset at one end) then strips of 10thou added as the support straps. I tacked one end in place, let it dry, then bent the other end round, tacked and trimmed the excess:

 

The Vacuum Reservoirs attached to the underframe immediately behind the outer V hanger:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 6

 

On the prototype the vac cylinders lean towards the V hangers, on the kit as supplied they don't. The correct location for the cylinders on the supplied underframe also had no spacers so angled spacers were fabricated crudely:

 

A length of 0.8mm styrene rod was threaded through the brake lever and solvented to the V hangers but keeping the brake lever itself clear of solvent:

 

The vac cylinders could now be positioned and fixed and the brake lever solvented in place:

 

The dynamo supplied in the kit is quite crude and on most examples I have seen misregistered:

 

I decided to scratchbuild one from styrene starting with some Evergreen tube. A strip of 10thou was wrapped around it thus:

 

And trimmed:

 

A smaller length of tube was then pushed through and solvented in place:

 

By rolling the assembly across the work mat I was able to round off the end with the emery boards:

 

The other end was now trimmed to length:

 

A hole 1mm diameter was drilled in the new dynamo and a short length of brass wire superglued in place. Note it has been given a slight bend:

 

With a new mounting hole drilled in the underframe moulding the dynamo can be fixed in place again with superglue:

 

Having added all the missing detail this is how the underframe should look:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Underframe - Part 7

 

Around this time I thought I ought think about how to secure the underframe to the body. I had already owrked out there was sufficient clearance to mount a block of styrene inset into the body. Two thicknesses of 80thou were solvented to the body ends:

 

I had some M2 screws and taps so drilled through the underframe and mounting block then tapped the body holes, opened up the underframe and countersink:

 

Back to the underframe. The KIrk kits do include some moulded solebar footsteps however they are only short. Instead I decided to use some Evergreen styrene strip solvented to the solebars. To get them level I spaced some steel rulers the correct height. New steps could now be added. I used Evergreen 0.75mm x 4mm strip choosing to sand it to width once fitted. The length of steps are 3'6" for single doors, 5'6" for double doors and 7'6" for the guard's doors:

 

New steps could now be added.

 

 

Kirk kits come with turned brass buffers that the builder is expected to file a flat along the top edge. They don't bear a lot of similarity to the prototype buffers so I used MJT Whitemetal Buffers:

 

Having opened up the headstock holes the new buffers were epoxied in place being careful to orientate them the correct way round:

 

Bogie stepboards were also added from styrene. This time I used Evergreen 2.5mm angle which had one leg cut back giving a shallow "L" section. This is not prototypical but was used to increase the contact area for the solvent to the bogies. Bogie stepboards are 7' 5 3/4" for the centre steps and 2'0" for the outer steps. The centre steps were added first (note the notch to clear the axleboxes:

 

With the centres fixed two engineer's squares were used to set the outer stepboards:

 

To strengthen the joint small sections of styrene were glued behind the step:

 

Due to the position of the doors two outer stepboards hang off of the sideframe considerably which I worried would not give a strong glued joint. I ended up putting reinforcing strips behind the step:

 

The steps can now been added:

 

Finally more reinforcing was solvented behind the steps:

Edited September 28, 2023 by MikeTrice

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Interior

 

A quick test assembly with the interior corridor screen and one of the partitions shows that with the wider floor pan the side corridor is a lot better than the straight Kirk build.

 

In spite of this I decided to reduce the compartment width by another 1.5mm but first I compared the supplied corridor screen against the Campling drawing. It prooved too long at the guard's end and a little short at the toilet end:

 

I trimmed off the excess and scored the toilet end to give an angle to the side. Rather than cut each supplied partition down by 1.5mm it was easier to cut new ones from 40thou styrene. My trusty engineer's squares are being used once more:

 

By narrowing the partitions the seats also need narrowing and I chose to do this while they were still attached to their sprues:

 

With the interior screen and partitions correctly located on the floor and solvented into place the seat could be added and glued:

 

A new full width partition was added at the guard's end. The toilet compartment is still too short but I did not think anyone would be able to see this once assembled:

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Always wonder why my Kirk coaches looked a little 'Bare' underneath, I can feel an upgrade coming on.

 

manna

[Captain_Mumbles]

This is so inspiring please do not stop!

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Details

 

There is a pipe that runs along the solebar which I formed from 0.7mm Evergreen styrene rod. This would probably have been better done with brass wire but the styrene solvents nicely to the solebars. The rod was bent to shape and solvented in place:

 

 

 

At one end the joint snapped so had to be solvented together:

 

Bogies were fixed in place using some 3mm self tappers bought off ebay:

 

 

The vestibule connectors supplied are now too short for the revised end profile so need stretching. First they were cut and pieces of styrene prepared to act as spacers:

 

Then solvented back together:

 

The repair was then sanded smooth:

 

Here is the stretched vestibule temporarily tacked onto one end. I have not glued it permanently at this point as I am considering replacing it with something else:

 

A few views (minus the connector) of current state of play:

 

[MikeTrice]

10 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

This is so inspiring please do not stop!

To be honest there is not a lot left to cover. For my own benefit still to do are:

1. Destination board holders
2. Alarm Gear
3. Door handles
4. Alternative vestibules

It was not my intention to paint and glaze the models rather leaving them in plain plastic and styrene as a record of what I did for future reference.

 

At this point I ran out of steam. We had builders in for 6 weeks and all modelling mojo went out the window. I am trying to pluck up the motivation to finish the build.

[Captain_Mumbles]

This happens to me a lot. I am not always creative and sometimes it doesn't come back in the right places.

 

Question: Is the pipe glued to the flange or the web of the sole bar?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles
Added qestion instead of double post.

[coronach]

This has been my top go to thread for the past week. I feel inspired to purchase another kit and have a go myself :-). The challenges for me will be the patience needed and to avoid the temptation to take short cuts. 
 

Did you have any thoughts about flush glazing?  After putting so much effort into building a more accurate body, it would be a shame to simply stick glazing strip against the inside. 

 

[MikeTrice]

6 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

Question: Is the pipe glued to the flange or the web of the sole bar?

If I understand your terminology correctly, nestled in the corner between them. The rod therefore has two contact points along most of its length.

[MikeTrice]

3 hours ago, coronach said:

Did you have any thoughts about flush glazing?  After putting so much effort into building a more accurate body, it would be a shame to simply stick glazing strip against the inside.

I have tried various schemes in the past with little success. This time around I have tried to form a rebate for the glazing to sit in (it was done as an experiment and has not been covered in the topic to date).

 

I will have a go at cutting individual glazing panes but it might be a step too far.

[cctransuk]

47 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

I have tried various schemes in the past with little success. This time around I have tried to form a rebate for the glazing to sit in (it was done as an experiment and has not been covered in the topic to date).

 

I will have a go at cutting individual glazing panes but it might be a step too far.

 

I have, in the past, milled a rebate for glazing using my Unimat, set up as a milling machine.

 

This creates a fair bit of plastic 'fuzz' around the windows, but this is easily, if laboriously, removed.

 

CJI.

[coronach]

2 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

I have tried various schemes in the past with little success. This time around I have tried to form a rebate for the glazing to sit in (it was done as an experiment and has not been covered in the topic to date).

 

I will have a go at cutting individual glazing panes but it might be a step too far.

I tried cutting individual panes. The challenge is to cut and fit each one so that it is the right size, flat and square with the side. It becomes very tedious with the opening windows

[jimwal]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I have, in the past, milled a rebate for glazing using my Unimat, set up as a milling machine.

 

This creates a fair bit of plastic 'fuzz' around the windows, but this is easily, if laboriously, removed.

 

CJI.

 

Yes, I milled rebates in Airfix LMS coaches for flush glazing. Many had been cut and shut into other types. 

I've also tried Kirk Gresleys but the deep panels mean you have to be careful not to break out the front.