A Tale of 3 Ex-Kirk 4mm LNER Coaches

[Captain_Mumbles]

9 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

If I understand your terminology correctly, nestled in the corner between them. The rod therefore has two contact points along most of its length.

My apologies as I am not sure of the railway terminology and so defaulted to what they would be if it were a 'I' Beam. Thanks for that info!

 

Also I am thinking of just cutting out the sides at the windows and making a 'window strip' with shallow paneling and framework built up on a clear styrene sheet. Kind of like MikeTrice style built up sides, but with the clear sheet as the bottom layer.  Hoping to solve the deep windows issue.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles
typo

[MikeTrice]

6 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

Also I am thinking of just cutting out the sides at the windows and making a 'window strip' with shallow paneling and framework built up on a clear styrene sheet. Kind of like MikeTrice style built up sides, but with the clear sheet as the bottom layer.

Sounds interesting but might make painting difficult.

[Captain_Mumbles]

53 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Sounds interesting but might make painting difficult.

Also as I have just found out, performing the whole task without scratching the windows. I know what you mean, the inside will have to be carefully painted as well.

[MikeTrice]

Thought I would experiment with some window ideas.

 

First off, an apology. I have used a glazing material from my stash which I think I bought from the 4D Model Shop. It is 0.5mm thick and comes with protective wrappers but I cannot recall what the plastic is.

 

The first image shows a standard Kirk window with glazing material behind it. Quick and easy:

 

I then tried cutting an individual pane to fit in the lower opening and fixed in place with Deluxe Glue N Glaze. The small opening were done completely with Glue N Glaze. I was not very neat and was disappointed how visible the Glue N Glaze was once dried:

 

Here is a second attempt this time being more careful when applying the glue. The small windows are also separate panes (or should that be pains):

 

Viewed from an angle thry are now visibly less recessed:

 

As an experiment I tried fixing another pane in with just Plastic Magic which ended up much neater, however it might not give such a strong joint once the sides have been painted:

 

Trying to cut individual panes was a real faff. It proved difficult to disguise the edges and needed very neat fixing in place. I then tried a simpler solution, attempting to rebate the sides.

 

The sides although thick over all are quite thin by the recessed panels which rather limits how much they can be rebated by:

 

I started off just chamfering the large window opening with a view to not recessing the top four openings:

 

However curiousity got the better of me and I wondered how easy it would be to also thin the top window frames. The plastic is quite soft so it was relatively easy to do with needle files:

 

A piece of glazing material was cut slightly larger than the openings and glued behind with Plastic Magic (hard to see the glazing in this image but it is there:

 

I suspect once the sides are painted the glazing could be attached using the Glue N Glaze and with the glazing overlapping the opening should not be too visible. When viewed from the right side the rebated window can be seen on the left compared with an untreated window on the right:

 

Not perfect but a whole lot better. Of course for the two vehicles I have built for this topic rebating the sides is not really practical at this stage, needing to be done before assembly of the body.

 

Would I do this in future? Well the effort is far less than fitting individual panes and not too onerous, so probably yes.

[cctransuk]

40 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Thought I would experiment with some window ideas.

 

First off, an apology. I have used a glazing material from my stash which I think I bought from the 4D Model Shop. It is 0.5mm thick and comes with protective wrappers but I cannot recall what the plastic is.

 

The first image shows a standard Kirk window with glazing material behind it. Quick and easy:

 

I then tried cutting an individual pane to fit in the lower opening and fixed in place with Deluxe Glue N Glaze. The small opening were done completely with Glue N Glaze. I was not very neat and was disappointed how visible the Glue N Glaze was once dried:

 

Here is a second attempt this time being more careful when applying the glue. The small windows are also separate panes (or should that be pains):

 

Viewed from an angle thry are now visibly less recessed:

 

As an experiment I tried fixing another pane in with just Plastic Magic which ended up much neater, however it might not give such a strong joint once the sides have been painted:

 

Trying to cut individual panes was a real faff. It proved difficult to disguise the edges and needed very neat fixing in place. I then tried a simpler solution, attempting to rebate the sides.

 

The sides although thick over all are quite thin by the recessed panels which rather limits how much they can be rebated by:

 

I started off just chamfering the large window opening with a view to not recessing the top four openings:

 

However curiousity got the better of me and I wondered how easy it would be to also thin the top window frames. The plastic is quite soft so it was relatively easy to do with needle files:

 

A piece of glazing material was cut slightly larger than the openings and glued behind with Plastic Magic (hard to see the glazing in this image but it is there:

 

I suspect once the sides are painted the glazing could be attached using the Glue N Glaze and with the glazing overlapping the opening should not be too visible. When viewed from the right side the rebated window can be seen on the left compared with an untreated window on the right:

 

Not perfect but a whole lot better. Of course for the two vehicles I have built for this topic rebating the sides is not really practical at this stage, needing to be done before assembly of the body.

 

Would I do this in future? Well the effort is far less than fitting individual panes and not too onerous, so probably yes.

 

As I mentioned previously, I have rebated Kirk coach sides by setting them up on the milling table of a Unimat lathe.

 

You need to support the lower edge of the side, such that the plane of the glazing rebate is horizontal. Also, you need to guide the side so that you can slide it underneath the milling cutter.

 

This can be done with a simple jig, constructed from plastic card. The jig is attached to the milling table, and the coach side slid into it.

 

With the cutter rotating - not too fast, practice on scrap! - a uniform rebate can be cut into the coach side.

 

Start cutting from a window aperture, and make sure that you are feeding the side against the rotation of the cutter.

 

CJI.

Edited October 5, 2023 by cctransuk

[CloggyDog]

On 01/10/2023 at 17:21, MikeTrice said:

I will have a go at cutting individual glazing panes but it might be a step too far.

 

How consistent are the moulded window openings? 

 

If they are fairly consistent, it would be possible to draw up and cut individual panes in 10 thou clear sheet on a Silhouette or CriCut machine. Happy to give it a try if you can supply dimensions. 

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

How consistent are the moulded window openings? 

 

If they are fairly consistent, it would be possible to draw up and cut individual panes in 10 thou clear sheet on a Silhouette or CriCut machine. Happy to give it a try if you can supply dimensions. 

 

I would guess - not very consistent; the tools for these kits were probably hand-machined.

 

Even mainstream RTR coach mouldings have been found to have inconsistent window apertures when flush glazing is attempted.

 

CJI.

[MikeTrice]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

As I mentioned previously, I have rebated Kirk coach sides by setting them up on the milling table of a Unimat lathe.

 

Unfortunately I do not have a Unimat lathe nor any other vertical mill. Everything presented here has been done using simple hand tools.

[coronach]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

Thought I would experiment with some window ideas.

 

First off, an apology. I have used a glazing material from my stash which I think I bought from the 4D Model Shop. It is 0.5mm thick and comes with protective wrappers but I cannot recall what the plastic is.

 

The first image shows a standard Kirk window with glazing material behind it. Quick and easy:

 

I then tried cutting an individual pane to fit in the lower opening and fixed in place with Deluxe Glue N Glaze. The small opening were done completely with Glue N Glaze. I was not very neat and was disappointed how visible the Glue N Glaze was once dried:

 

Here is a second attempt this time being more careful when applying the glue. The small windows are also separate panes (or should that be pains):

 

Viewed from an angle thry are now visibly less recessed:

 

As an experiment I tried fixing another pane in with just Plastic Magic which ended up much neater, however it might not give such a strong joint once the sides have been painted:

 

Trying to cut individual panes was a real faff. It proved difficult to disguise the edges and needed very neat fixing in place. I then tried a simpler solution, attempting to rebate the sides.

 

The sides although thick over all are quite thin by the recessed panels which rather limits how much they can be rebated by:

 

I started off just chamfering the large window opening with a view to not recessing the top four openings:

 

However curiousity got the better of me and I wondered how easy it would be to also thin the top window frames. The plastic is quite soft so it was relatively easy to do with needle files:

 

A piece of glazing material was cut slightly larger than the openings and glued behind with Plastic Magic (hard to see the glazing in this image but it is there:

 

I suspect once the sides are painted the glazing could be attached using the Glue N Glaze and with the glazing overlapping the opening should not be too visible. When viewed from the right side the rebated window can be seen on the left compared with an untreated window on the right:

 

Not perfect but a whole lot better. Of course for the two vehicles I have built for this topic rebating the sides is not really practical at this stage, needing to be done before assembly of the body.

 

Would I do this in future? Well the effort is far less than fitting individual panes and not too onerous, so probably yes.

I think one of my coaches has individually cut panes for the main windows and glazing attached to the rear for the top lights. It’s not too obvious but not as I would like it. As you say, the window openings are irregular sizes. 

[MikeTrice]

47 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

How consistent are the moulded window openings? 

 

If they are fairly consistent, it would be possible to draw up and cut individual panes in 10 thou clear sheet on a Silhouette or CriCut machine. Happy to give it a try if you can supply dimensions. 

As @cctransuk has said, not very, and from memory he is correct, the moulds were hand-machined. I also have a Silhouette (but thank you for the offer) however even with window panes that fit there is the problem of how to fix them neatly. Also 10thou for the main windows would probably not remain flat.

 

[coronach]

Irrespective of the glazing issue, the posts in this thread show how a decent model can be constructed from the Kirk kit. 

[Captain_Mumbles]

Stupid question:

What determines what side has the step all the way along the sole bar?

[CloggyDog]

20 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

As @cctransuk has said, not very, and from memory he is correct, the moulds were hand-machined. I also have a Silhouette (but thank you for the offer) however even with window panes that fit there is the problem of how to fix them neatly. Also 10thou for the main windows would probably not remain flat.

 

 

No problem. 

 

I may give it a go anyway on my Kirk 51' Ordinaries, as they'll need glazing once painted. 

 

I've found 10 thou works fine (so far) where i've used it to glaze locos and stock. I hold the panes in place with a thin smear of MicroScale's Kristal Klear around the inside edge of the opening, then carefully place the glazing in. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by CloggyDog

[MikeTrice]

8 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

Stupid question:

What determines what side has the step all the way along the sole bar?

It depends on the coach and period. The coaches in this topic have end doors so it would be a waste of timber having full length step boards. Earlier coaches typically had separate doors for each compartment on the compartment side (hence full length step boards) whereas the corridor side had much fewer doors so featured separate step boards. Hope I have explained that ok.

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

It depends on the coach and period. The coaches in this topic have end doors so it would be a waste of timber having full length step boards. Earlier coaches typically had separate doors for each compartment on the compartment side (hence full length step boards) whereas the corridor side had much fewer doors so featured separate step boards. Hope I have explained that ok.

The mention of full length step boards on Gresley carriages reminds me of this scene.

 

Enjoying watching this build. I'm tempted to have another go at building one of two of these carriages. 

[Captain_Mumbles]

4 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

It depends on the coach and period. The coaches in this topic have end doors so it would be a waste of timber having full length step boards. Earlier coaches typically had separate doors for each compartment on the compartment side (hence full length step boards) whereas the corridor side had much fewer doors so featured separate step boards. Hope I have explained that ok.

Thanks for that. I collected and studied a lot of pictures from the web and I think I am seeing at occasions or exceptions sometimes where full length step boards can happen on both sides but as a general rule that is what i suspected and makes a lot of sense.

 

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The mention of full length step boards on Gresley carriages reminds me of this scene.

Enjoying watching this build. I'm tempted to have another go at building one of two of these carriages. 

 

Some very good reference in the video! Seeing those boards with people on em puts their size in perspective!

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 05/10/2023 at 16:15, CloggyDog said:

 

How consistent are the moulded window openings? 

 

If they are fairly consistent, it would be possible to draw up and cut individual panes in 10 thou clear sheet on a Silhouette or CriCut machine. Happy to give it a try if you can supply dimensions. 

 

If the windows are rebated, them half a mil here and there won't matter.

 

Also, when fixing windows in with whatever medium, cover the whole window with the 'glue' and an edge tide mark won't be noticeable, and also blacken the edge of glazing to lose the prismatic effect.

 

Mike.

[Captain_Mumbles]

This is my attempt at flush windows on a railroad coach. Unfortunately, I cut the clear strip too narrow and couldn't use it, but I think next time ill get it right.

 

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Details - Part 1

 

Gresley destination board holders comprise three sections as seen on this recent image of Buffet Car 641. This is the first time I have seen 641 since it has been restored following the vandalism incident some years ago. The lettering "BUFFET CAR" has been repainted the correct size of 5" over the gold:

 

The three sections feature brackets that provide slots into which the destination boards can be fitted. At the end there is a single slot:

 

In the middle the brackets have two slots:

 

There is a strip that runs along the top of the brackets (missing in the last image) which stops cinders falling behind the destination boards.

 

On my model I measured and cut two lengths of Plastruct 0.3mm rod based on the Nick Campling drawing. These both had the centres marked as did the coach side. The rods were placed on the coach roof aligning the centre marks and spaced away from the cornice at one end and a small amount of solvent added to just grab the end:

 

I then did the same for the other end using a pair of dividers to measure the distance from the cornice and putting slight pressure on the rod to more of less straighten it before again tacking the end in place.

 

A steel ruler was then placed up against the rod and pulled against the straight edge and solvented in place. This should result in a straight cinder strip. Apologies that the cinder strip being white does not really show up against the white of the moulded roof:

 

Small strips of 30thou styrene in two widths were then added representing the brackets:

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by MikeTrice

[Captain_Mumbles]

Gorgeous.

[MikeTrice]

On 14/10/2023 at 23:09, Captain_Mumbles said:

Gorgeous.

Me or the coach? Sorry, could not resist.

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Details - Part 2

 

Now for a job I hate, the alarm gear on one end.

 

First some photos of the prototype. The overall arrangement:

 

I am referring to the alarm gear on the rearmost coach which is the most common arrangement.

 

 

And finally:

 

So basically there is a rod which goes across the end which has butterfly "tell-tales" on the ends (painted red). The domed cover acts as a pivot and hides a lever connected to the communication cords inside the vehicle. The rectangular box next to it is a valve. When the communication cord is pulled the lever rotates 90 degrees rotating the rod with it which opens the valve which lets air into the system via the down pipe, destroying the vacuum and applying the brakes. The "tell-tales" which have moved from a horizontal position to vertical indicate which coach features the guilty passenger. Here endeth the technical lesson ;-)

 

First job is to mark where the two vertical mounting blocks should be located using the drawing as a guide:

 

The mounting block were carved from 2mmx2mm section styrene noting the odd angles needed where they meet the roof. It took me several attempts to get these reasonable:

 

The fix them to the roof I resorted to 5min epoxy as I am effectively trying to glue to Milliput. The end cornice really needs sanding back at this point. I will do it, promise:

 

Normally I would make the cross rod from 0.45 N/S wire with soldered butterflies but I had used styrene for most of this build and could not be asked to get my soldering iron out. In this case the cross rod has been cut to length from 0.5mm styrene rod. 20thou styrene was cut and notched to start the butterflies:

 

The butterflies has been cut in two and solvented to the rod:

 

With the solvent set they could be trimmed back:

 

Once happy the rod was solvented to the two mounting blocks:

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Details - Part 3

 

The pivot covers were fashion from a strip of styrene starting by notching the end with the razor saw:

 

It could then be trimmed and roughly fashioned:

 

They can now be solvented over the rod fixing it in place:

 

The mounting block for the release valve was also fashioned from styrene and its odd shape filed:

 

The bottom edge was tapered and scalloped:

 

The release valve was fashioned like the pivot covers:

 

Both parts added to the coach (and the end cornice tidied up):

 

With everything fixed in place I was able to tidy up some of my rough cutting with the sanding sticks.

 

 

 

[Captain_Mumbles]

14 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

Me or the coach? Sorry, could not resist.

Yeah, the coach wasn't too bad either.

[MikeTrice]

Rebuilt Kit: Details - Part 3

 

Using the end view from the drawing 4 pieces of black styrene were cut to make the vestibule connectors:

 

These were lightly solvented together trying not to flood the seams and part of the drawing glue sticked on top:

 

The width was trimmed to match the drawing then the top profile formed. The lower two layers of styrene were then separated by sliding a knife blade between the layers:

 

The remaining upper two layers with drawing then had the lower profile formed whilst the lower two layers were trimmed short. All pieces were then separated:

 

Black paper (90gsm - could benefit being lighter weight) was cut into strips 30mm high and widths of 16mm marked with pencil:

 

Each piece was folder into a concertina and the end centre lines marked. With the pieces all orientated the same way a slot was cut on the lower half of the folded bellows:

 

By rotating one piece 180 degrees two bellows could be slotted together thus:

 

Resulting in simplified bellows:

 

The bellows were then flattened and the top curved profile cut:

 

One end plate and one inner plate were then stuck to the bellows with a contact adhesive before it gets tacky resulting in two completed bellows:

 

Attached to the coach with more contact adhesive:

 

Normally I would wait until the coach is painted before attaching them.

 

The vestibule connectors shown here are fairly simplistic. I have been known to produce a slightly more detailed version. For this the bellows capability to extend is limited by two length of black cotton tied around the folder paper BEFORE glueing to the end plates. I then add thin strips of black plastic bin liners to act as a weather shield of the gangway: