Battery Recharge Tests

[Damo666]

I was in West Ealing a few weeks ago (mid Sept) and was curious about some new track equipment between the tracks.

 

Asking the guys in Hi-Viz jackets, they said it a prototype battery charging system they are testing.

 

(Off-topic: I always understood the word ‘Prototype’ as being something in the investigatory realm, and not the end result). That’s a record for RMWeb, haven’t finished the OP and already it’s OT.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

This is the fast charging equipment for the Battery Train trail that GWR is conducting using their new Class 230s.

 

GWR have brought the assets / IP from Vivarail.

 

The rails in the four foot are only energised when a train is over them and the charging shoes are deployed underneath it. The Tracklink system is used to arm the system on approach.

 

I believe the idea is that once proved, all the Thames Valley and Cornish Branch lines will be converted to Battery units.

 

Simon

Edited September 29, 2023 by St. Simon

[Artless Bodger]

Is this the battery recharge system for the converted D stock trains? GWR bought the entire  St Simon beat me to it!

 

Thank you both, for the detailed explanation, and the photos.

 

Hope it is succesful.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

4 hours ago, Damo666 said:

(Off-topic: I always understood the word ‘Prototype’ as being something in the investigatory realm, and not the end result).

"Protoype" has many uses, but in design and development it is usually the first example (sometimes a small batch) that can be tested in its intended use. I expect the unit has already been tested in the factory/depot, and now it is being tested in the field. Prototypes might be missing certain features, and changes are generally expected to be made before production. Sometimes prototypes remain in service alongside production units - perhaps after being brought up to the same standard. Sometimes there are sufficient diffences between the prototype and production units that the prototypes are withdrawn, and of course some things never get beyond the prototye stage. I am sure many of us can think of examples of all three, such as Tommy, Deltic or the prototype HST, and APT-P.

[Artless Bodger]

Didn't Vivarail try this idea out on the Bo'ness and Kinneil railway? I recall reading that they proposed the use of a lead acid battery bank on trickle charge and then dump to the train battery during its reversal at the station.

[D7063]

2 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Didn't Vivarail try this idea out on the Bo'ness and Kinneil railway? I recall reading that they proposed the use of a lead acid battery bank on trickle charge and then dump to the train battery during its reversal at the station.

That would certainly make sense, in order to rapid charge the traction battery in areas where a high capacity grid connection was not available.

[nightstar.train]

2 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Didn't Vivarail try this idea out on the Bo'ness and Kinneil railway? I recall reading that they proposed the use of a lead acid battery bank on trickle charge and then dump to the train battery during its reversal at the station.

 

This is exactly that. Vivarail partnered with GWR and the DfT for a full scale trial on this branch line. When Vivarail went bust GWR bought their technology and assets and employed the staff needed for the trial. There is a large bank of batteries at the station that trickle charge from the grid, then when the train arrives it can be fast charged in 10 minutes. The plan is that the traction batteries on the trains will last 5-7 years before they're too degraded and need to be replaced, but they can then have a second life as the station battery.  If this trial is a success GWR are hoping to role it out on many more branches. They've bought all of Vivarail's unconverted ex tube trains to enable that. 

[adb968008]

So the ex-Tube stock could have a much longer life yet ?

 

Could be a good idea.

 

Oxted line maybe a good one too, it has the advantage of charging off the 3rd rail sections too surely ?

[St. Simon]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Oxted line maybe a good one too, it has the advantage of charging off the 3rd rail sections too surely ?

Hi,

 

I suspect that the third rail supply is too variable in terms of voltage and current, something which lithium batteries really don’t like, so I would think the equipment to regulate it would be quite involved and potentially beyond fitting on the stock and controlling it from the lineside could be quite complex!

 

I’m sure it could be done, just could require more thought than money is willing to buy!

 

Simon

[Rich_F]

2 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I suspect that the third rail supply is too variable in terms of voltage and current, something which lithium batteries really don’t like, so I would think the equipment to regulate it would be quite involved and potentially beyond fitting on the stock and controlling it from the lineside could be quite complex!

 

I’m sure it could be done, just could require more thought than money is willing to buy!

 

Simon

 

There was a Network Rail infrastructure study & also chat on railukforums in 2022 that Network Rail has actually been given the go-ahead to investigate electrifying Oxted - Uckfield by the govt. What that actually means on the ground I've no idea! 

[St. Simon]

52 minutes ago, Rich_F said:

 

There was a Network Rail infrastructure study & also chat on railukforums in 2022 that Network Rail has actually been given the go-ahead to investigate electrifying Oxted - Uckfield by the govt. What that actually means on the ground I've no idea! 

Hi,

 

Basically it means that NR have the money to conduct a GRIP 1 / 2 or PACE Phase 1 study to see what they can do, what options they have (if any) and how much it’s going to cost.

 

Then they can apply for funding to carry out design, install etc.

 

Simon

[Wickham Green too]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

... Oxted line maybe a good one too, it has the advantage of charging off the 3rd rail sections too surely ?

Yes, the Oxted line DOES have 3rd rail ........ it's the bit down to Uckfield that doesn't 

 

.... or does it ? :15/10/11

Edited October 2, 2023 by Wickham Green too

[Michael Hodgson]

How long before somebody hops over the railway fence and hot-wires his EV to it?

[Bob83a]

One of the Class 230 battery powered units has made it to the EMU sidings next to Plasser & Theurer, that forms part of the triangle junction at the southern end of the Greenford branch. Has the testing on the branch started or does anyone know when they will enter service.

[Bob83a]

Answering my own questions. ECS trials seem to have started last Thursday 29th Feb, but all were cancelled on Friday. But some ran today, and 4 trips seem to be scheduled tomorrow 5th.

 

See RealTimeTrains for schedule, TOC is SO (Rail Adventure).

 

Seems to run in between the normal class 165 service train trips.

[Mike_Walker]

It does, at present these are non-public "ghost" trips replicating the service conditions using 230001.  Once they have proved reliability, passenger trips will commence.  The cancellations last week were due to the unit being attacked by the local scum bags requiring GWR to clean off all the unwanted additional "livery".  Unlike sHitachi who leave it on IETs for weeks even if it is highly offensive.

[Hesperus]

Really pleased to see some progress with Vivarails plans, this has been a long time coming.

 

Just a minor point but it seems silly to run these between service trains rather than just use them as the service trains.  If one breaks down it'll still stop the service on the branch until its recovered.  

[Halvarras]

On 30/09/2023 at 14:19, nightstar.train said:

 

This is exactly that. Vivarail partnered with GWR and the DfT for a full scale trial on this branch line. When Vivarail went bust GWR bought their technology and assets and employed the staff needed for the trial. There is a large bank of batteries at the station that trickle charge from the grid, then when the train arrives it can be fast charged in 10 minutes. The plan is that the traction batteries on the trains will last 5-7 years before they're too degraded and need to be replaced, but they can then have a second life as the station battery.  If this trial is a success GWR are hoping to role it out on many more branches. They've bought all of Vivarail's unconverted ex tube trains to enable that. 

 

So the train's traction batteries have been designed to be repeatedly fast-charged in just 10 minutes, without accelerated degradation? 

 

I only ask because treating the battery on an electric vehicle this way is not recommended, as it shortens battery life.

[Bob83a]

6 hours ago, Hesperus said:

Really pleased to see some progress with Vivarails plans, this has been a long time coming.

 

Just a minor point but it seems silly to run these between service trains rather than just use them as the service trains.  If one breaks down it'll still stop the service on the branch until its recovered.  

The Greenford branch is double track throughout except for the terminus stations so a failed train will not block the line entirely.

[DY444]

8 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

So the train's traction batteries have been designed to be repeatedly fast-charged in just 10 minutes, without accelerated degradation? 

 

I only ask because treating the battery on an electric vehicle this way is not recommended, as it shortens battery life.

 

No they haven't.  The power systems and heat management systems will have been designed to accommodate the power inherent in a fast charge.  The batteries however are still subject to the laws of physics and the properties of the chemical compounds they employ.  Engineers (except those on the NASA Space Shuttle programme obviously) will be familiar with the truism that is the cost, time, quality mantra.  Current technology batteries have a recharge time, charge range, service life equivalent.  You cannot improve one without degrading one or both of the others. 

 

The optimum state of charge for maximum service life is 20-80% so that chops 40% off your range.  The optimum rate of charge for maximum service life is as slow as possible.  The best service life is thus achieved charging slowly and keeping the state of charge between 20 and 80% so you can't have fast charging and high range if you want maximum service life with present battery technology.  A scaleable battery that offers all 3 is the holy grail and we're not there.   If any routinely fast charged BEMU battery gets anywhere near the claimed battery life I shall be very surprised. 

Edited March 5 by DY444

[62613]

On 05/03/2024 at 11:12, DY444 said:

 

No they haven't.  The power systems and heat management systems will have been designed to accommodate the power inherent in a fast charge.  The batteries however are still subject to the laws of physics and the properties of the chemical compounds they employ.  Engineers (except those on the NASA Space Shuttle programme obviously) will be familiar with the truism that is the cost, time, quality mantra.  Current technology batteries have a recharge time, charge range, service life equivalent.  You cannot improve one without degrading one or both of the others. 

 

The optimum state of charge for maximum service life is 20-80% so that chops 40% off your range.  The optimum rate of charge for maximum service life is as slow as possible.  The best service life is thus achieved charging slowly and keeping the state of charge between 20 and 80% so you can't have fast charging and high range if you want maximum service life with present battery technology.  A scaleable battery that offers all 3 is the holy grail and we're not there.   If any routinely fast charged BEMU battery gets anywhere near the claimed battery life I shall be very surprised. 

...and ye cannae change the laws of physics, Jim!

 

Sorry, had to!

[D7063]

Also keep in mind that it is unlikely to receive a charge from 'empty to full' on each occasion, it only has to have replenished what it has used on it's journey. With the costs having fallen per kWh of capacity for more durable chemistries, there is now a better business case for having a battery with more capacity. Ultimately though, as others have said you can only get out a percentage of what you put in over a given time with any battery. With a lifespan measured in 'charge cycles' the less times you have to go from empty (say 80% SOC) to full (100%) the longer the life of the battery. 

[Hesperus]

I seem to recall hearing that the train has run for 70+ miles on battery power and the branch is less than 3 miles long so we might be unduly worrying about the batteries being damaged by rapid charging.

 

Edit. 83 miles

  https://news.gwr.com/news/great-western-railways-battery-train-sets-new-distance-record

Edited March 7 by Hesperus

[Pacific231G]

I travelled on the Greenford Branch on Friday (For me it's a handy way to get to the Waitrose in W. Ealing on the site of the old goods yard) and they were testing the new train then. It was running in counterpoint to the service train but I think they were doing other tests enroute as well as on the battery banks at West Ealing. There was pobably  test equipment aboard that would have made it impossible to carry passengers and there will also have been a load of testing of doors, emergency functions and so on as well as driver training before they can be brought into service. 

I understand the way it works is that the battery banks at the charging station are gradually charged from the ordinary public supply but deliver charging power to the train at a far higher amperage within the five minutes or so that the Greenford Train turns around in. This system will obviously make sense for GWR's other branches such as Marlow, Henley and Looe (to name just three) that are fairly short. The Greenford Branch makes sense as a test site as there are alternative public transport services covering all five stations it so a failure would only leave prospective passengers inconvenienced not stranded.   

some pictures of the installation at W. Ealing 

one of the two charging rails with the battery banks behind

 

fast charge battery bank no 1

optical ? train detector 

 

2nd charging rail (closer to buffers)

 

On Friday, I only saw the train in motion from a service train going the other way but others who've seen it say that it's eerily quiet- far more so than even a normal electric train. I assume this is because of the distributed power.  

 

Edited March 11 by Pacific231G
added pictures

[DY444]

On 11/03/2024 at 12:39, Pacific231G said:

On Friday, I only saw the train in motion from a service train going the other way but others who've seen it say that it's eerily quiet- far more so than even a normal electric train. I assume this is because of the distributed power.  

 

 

If it is quieter it will probably be because it only has  one motor per powered bogie rather than the typical two on a UK emu. 

I watched a video of it slowing down on the dynamic brake and it sounded pretty loud to me or at least no quieter than any other emu using the dynamic brake.  Always hard to tell with dynamic brakes how much is motor and how much is blower but I'm assuming the generated power was at least party employed charging the battery and not just being dissipated

Edited March 12 by DY444