Poll - Environment and Exhibitions

[C126]

Sorry, @PMP , I have just endured a couple of flawed surveys at work by some who should know better.  I appreciate it is difficult to construct something like this.  It does throw out the results though.  And yes, I do feel smug at my virtue-signalling, and have had to restrain myself at not ranting in the main thread from which this stems.

 

Thanks for your contributions.

 

[PMP]

Just now, C126 said:

Sorry, @PMP , I have just endured a couple of flawed surveys at work by some who should know better.  I appreciate it is difficult to construct something like this.  It does throw out the results though.  And yes, I do feel smug at my virtue-signalling, and have had to restrain myself at not ranting in the main thread from which this stems.

 

Thanks for your contributions.

 

You're more than welcome, I think a good quality survey could produce some interesting insights into how 'we' do and perhaps should travel to shows and take into account if we can do things better. But this one is just a blunt tool but still I think some interesting numbers coming out.

[TheQ]

It's a mile and a half to the nearest bus stop. It then takes 3 or  4 hours depending on route and changes of bus,  That's for the 25 miles to Norwich,   before I catch the train or bus to anywhere.

Public transport isn't feasible, 

 

I've already decided in the past not to go to some shows due to no parking, and recently decided not to go to a show I fancied, because the towns parking, which was next door almost.  was only via an "app" on a mobile phone which I didn't have.

 

The next show I'll go to is 37 miles away which is local for me, the projected time by car is 1 hour 3 minutes. By bus about 4 hours, but I can't get back the same day....

 

We are already penalised by the expense and time of travelling to any show, I really wouldn't like being penalised further.

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I don't go to many exhibitions, and since my interest is mainly in the larger scales, when I do I often travel a long distance to get there. However, I don't particularly like driving on motorways and I do like travelling by train, so if I can I'll use public transport. In recent years I've been to both the Larger Scales exhibition in Reading by train from Penrith and the Yorkshire Garden Railway show in Elsecar by train from Langwathby. Peterborough was next to impossible to get to by train, so I always drove. I'm not sure what I'll do for Stoneleigh, but if they don't lay on a bus service, there's no chance I'll go by public transport, even though getting to Coventry is straightforward by train from Penrith. [Edit: Penrith is about 30 miles from home, but Maryport (7 miles) isn't much use for getting anywhere to the south. There's a good bus service to Penrith, but the last bus back is too early for most days out, so usually I drive there.]

 

Then there's the paying for the laid-on bus service, which in my mind I think of as an additional cost to the entrance fee, rather than part of the cost of getting to the show. Perhaps I might not think this if parking has to be paid for (and I happen to know it has to be paid for - car drivers and public transport users are often ignorant of each other's costs), but parking was free at Peterborough as I recall.

 

There is, of course, another consideration, in that I might be going to the show expecting to buy things. In 45 mm gauge, most things tend to be pretty big, so if I'm expecting to buy a few items of rolling stock, say, then I'll take the car.

 

I seem to recall one show, many years ago, perhaps Bristol (it might have been model engineering rather than model railways) offering a discount on production of a bus or train ticket.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately I can't answer as I am not in a position to visit model railway exhibitions. However I  used to prefer going by train if the journey was reasonable.

[Neil]

When I was a lad most if not all large shows that I could visit were in city centre locations. York was in the Museum and Assembly Rooms, Leeds the Corn Exchange, Hull, Bristol and Blackburn in city centres too. They all had little in the way of parking, certainly no public car parking spaces though if I remember correctly there was some exhibitor and trade parking at Blackburn. 

 

These days it's rare to find city centre exhibitions, most being in sports halls, schools or community venues in the suburbs where parking for punters is available. I'm sure that this mainly reflects the growth of private motoring rather than a decline in public transport. I suppose this reflects societal trends towards the individual rather than the collective with a high value being placed on convenience. I think that Q4 solo vs group travel reflects this.

 

I think that the thread which spawned this survey and discussion degenerated into ill temper because to do something different, to reprioritise requires a bit of a change of mindset and change can be threatening and advocacy for it easily taken as criticism. The environmental impact of driving to an exhibition might seem piddling, particularly when compared to major polluters but if no one tries to do a bit better or we all wait for someone else to start then what hope is there? Maybe we start by car sharing or using the bus or train where we can?

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

Back in my yooth exhibitions were either local, school hall or fire station near the town centre, or national or local area. Paddington, City University or Westminster, or a school or local arena. All easy to get to by public transport, or walking and at most a short local bus ride. EM moved to Bracknell, via Letherhead. A short walk from the station became a much more complicated trip. Tring went from Berko to Wing, again more difficult to get to. St Albans went to Stevemage, A much more complicated or longer journey for me. While I would prefer to go by public transport it has become more and more difficult. I uppose Stoke Mandeville is about the longest running show at a fairly convienient locstion. Even High Wycombe has changed locstion and is now more difficult to reach by public transport for me. The general changes in sociey seem to have worked against me.

I understand why. But I don't see it as an improvement in my quality of life, let alone being friendly to the environment.

Bernard

 

[rue_d_etropal]

This is one issue I have Ben thinking about for a few years. As I now do not have a car I have to use public transport, and I have even transported small exhibition layouts by bus or train.

Charging an eco tax will bring out all the regiments currently being spout that it is not fair on the less well off.

Better to look at it from opposite angle and try to get as many exhibitions in venues easily accessible by public transport. In particular by train as we are railway enthusiasts and should try to use it ourselves. 

I seem to remember reading a long time ago that some larger layouts were even transported by train .  Would have required a lot of planning though. 

Another issue might be our insistence on exhibitions nearly always being held at weekends. Not everyone works Monday to Friday. 

 

 

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

Q6, Q7 and Q8 require an answer, even if you’re not a vehicle user/own transport owner (pushbike!?). 

[Dava]

Quite a lot of shows remote from a rail station include a vintage bus shuttle to/from the station. Stafford being an example. Retro and quirky but what about their environmental impact?

 

One of the best shows and venues was at Derby in the Roundhouse venue, couldn’t be closer to Derby station though parking was a bit limited, and environmental performance of the building restored with oodles of public money was at BREAM standards. But post-Covid, Derby College stopped its use as an events venue and Derby has lost its premier model rail event.

 

[PMP]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

This is one issue I have Ben thinking about for a few years. As I now do not have a car I have to use public transport, and I have even transported small exhibition layouts by bus or train.

Charging an eco tax will bring out all the regiments currently being spout that it is not fair on the less well off.

 

Better to look at it from opposite angle and try to get as many exhibitions in venues easily accessible by public transport. In particular by train as we are railway enthusiasts and should try to use it ourselves. 

Snip

Another issue might be our insistence on exhibitions nearly always being held at weekends. Not everyone works Monday to Friday. 

 

Good access is obviously a desirable element. Good public transport links are generally associated with urban areas. Exhibition managers relate the high cost of hiring urban locations, in the closed thread I’d found a significant difference between similar venues between London and a rural venue. So larger venue costs will naturally go on the door price, so it won’t make an appreciable door price difference for those less well off.

 

I do shift/weekend work, for any weekend function if I want to guarantee attendance, I have to take leave. That’s life and I don’t know anyone who’s in a shift work vocation who doesn’t live with that problem. I’ve been to recent shows where there is a Friday included and they aren’t particularly busy with punters, most of which have been greyhairs. It would mean higher costs for venue hire, exhibitors vehicle and accommodation prices, and exhibitors would also potentially have to take extra leave to attend. Traders would need to factor another day minimum, out of ‘the office’. The venue, vehicle and exhibitors costs would need to be covered by extra footfall or door prices. A door price uplift would be the logical solution to cover those additional financial risks.

[PMP]

2 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

Q6, Q7 and Q8 require an answer, even if you’re not a vehicle user/own transport owner (pushbike!?). 

As mentioned previously these polls are pretty blunt instruments. I asked the questions based on most people visiting shows using Public Transport, or ICE vehicles, with an emphasis towards cars. The number of exhibiton visitors that use pushbikes to visit, must be very very small.

[PMP]

2 hours ago, Dava said:

Quite a lot of shows remote from a rail station include a vintage bus shuttle to/from the station. Stafford being an example. Retro and quirky but what about their environmental impact?

 

The easy way round that for the exhibition organisers to reduce the shows carbon footprint is not to provide one. Therefore it’s encumbent on the visitors to make their way to the show in the most environmentally sustainable way. 
Alternatively you could assume that the vintage bus encourages people to not use their vehicles, therefore reducing pollution local to the show venue from cars. We can see from the survey that most of us 70%, attend as solo visitors, and around 50% of those in vehicles, and using national stats only 3-4% of those will be electric/hybrid.

[eastwestdivide]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

As mentioned previously these polls are pretty blunt instruments. I asked the questions based on most people visiting shows using Public Transport, or ICE vehicles, with an emphasis towards cars. The number of exhibiton visitors that use pushbikes to visit, must be very very small.

Pushbike was a bit of a joke, but those Qs aren’t applicable to someone without their own transport, so shouldn’t be compulsory. It wasn’t clear to me from the top that the emphasis of the poll was car owners.

[PMP]

57 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

Pushbike was a bit of a joke, but those Qs aren’t applicable to someone without their own transport, so shouldn’t be compulsory. It wasn’t clear to me from the top that the emphasis of the poll was car owners.

The context was outlined in the first post, regarding how visitors travel to shows.  I’m more than happy for anyone else to have a go at setting one up if they feel they can do better or more accurately. 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 16/10/2023 at 14:37, woodenhead said:

One of the biggest arguments about the Ulez type approach is that it is the poorest people who are most affected because they cannot choose their mode of transport and forcing them onto public transport may not be a fair option.  I guess the outcome would be those that feel they dont have a choice in how they travel may vote to simply not attend.

Public transport is not viable for many potential journeys because the service is far too infrequent, needs too many changes or is completely non-existent.  So most people need a set of wheels of their own regardless of what they would prefer to use.

 

Those who are completely destitute can't afford a car, and may have to use a push-bike or a bus for journeys too long to walk. 

If the poor have a job and there is no public transport the poor will have to buy a clapped-out old banger to get to work, and that is bound to be non-compliant.

 

It's only them that has the money that drives the latest fashion in motors.  Compliant cars are the newer models, costing a lot more.

 

The scrappage schemes are discrimnatory because they are run by local government.  You only qualify if you live in that council's area.  If you live outside it but drive in (because you can't afford housing within the area) you won't qualify.  If we are to have a fair scrappage scheme, it has to be national (and I do mean the whole of the UK, not just devolved to Scots or Welsh Assemblies because borders are what makes these schemes are discriminatory).

 

The same petty nonsense is now being applied to rubbish disposal at recycling centres.  I took a dead telly to the local dump this weekend, but before I was allowed in I had to prove to a council employee (poor chap had to stand in the rain all day) that I live in the county.  As it happens my nearest tip does happen to be within the county, but folk who live close to a county boundary often live closer to one on the other side of the line.  The telly itself happened to be from the other side of the border however, as I was saving a disabled lady in Cambridgeshire a journey to an inconvenient location.  And to add insult to injury, the chap who told me where they want it left told me the council makes money out of it, as the container goes to prison so the inmates can salvage valuable metals.  So if they had turned me away they would actually be out of pocket!  No wonder some councils go bust if they are wasting money on this sort of nonsense

[Hal Nail]

On 17/10/2023 at 09:43, C126 said:

I do not drive for many reasons

 

And the poll is flawed, in forcing me to answer questions on things irrelevant (car ticket prices) before it accepts my answers.

agreed, I was going to say the same thing.

 

Appreciate no quick poll is going to be perfect but could add "no opinion" so people dont skew results when forced to answer?

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

agreed, I was going to say the same thing.

 

Appreciate no quick poll is going to be perfect but could add "no opinion" so people dont skew results when forced to answer?

 

Exactly, this poll looks to me as though it was constructed with a particular agenda behind it. 

We don't go to shows to support the environment or to use a particular means of transport, we go to shows in order to see the show.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Exactly, this poll looks to me as though it was constructed with a particular agenda behind it. 

We don't go to shows to support the environment or to use a particular means of transport, we go to shows in order to see the show.

An awful lot of polls are constructed like this, even when the writer doesn't intend the poll to be biased in any way. Designing poll questions is quite a difficult business. I don't think it is intuitive, but is something that needs to be taught. I had a very basic introduction in school (such as the need to include an "other" option in many situations), and have picked up more since.

 

What really takes skill, though, is designing a biased poll in such a way that people don't realise it is biased:

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

An awful lot of polls are constructed like this, even when the writer doesn't intend the poll to be biased in any way. Designing poll questions is quite a difficult business. I don't think it is intuitive, but is something that needs to be taught. I had a very basic introduction in school (such as the need to include an "other" option in many situations), and have picked up more since.

 

What really takes skill, though, is designing a biased poll in such a way that people don't realise it is biased:

 

 

Funny you should say that - that particular episode went through my mind when I posted.  😀

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Exactly, this poll looks to me as though it was constructed with a particular agenda behind it. 

We don't go to shows to support the environment or to use a particular means of transport, we go to shows in order to see the show.

No agenda whatsoever. Just to make it clear! 🙂 For interest what is the bias that you think I’ve included.

 

The poll was thought of on the hoof, and using what this software allowed on a mobile phone, the software doesn’t appear on my phone to allow adding/subtracting categories etc. The floor is open for you to improve it with your own, I look forward to seeing it.

 

 

What does appear to come through in the responses, here and on the closed thread is that the majority of people don’t appear to be interested in taking environmental considerations into account,  when attending exhibitions. This doesn’t actually come as a surprise to me, but then I used to professionally deal with large numbers of environmental complaints from members of the public, and attitudes aren’t really changing.

Yet.

[Mallard60022]

19 hours ago, Dava said:

Quite a lot of shows remote from a rail station include a vintage bus shuttle to/from the station. Stafford being an example. Retro and quirky but what about their environmental impact?

 

One of the best shows and venues was at Derby in the Roundhouse venue, couldn’t be closer to Derby station though parking was a bit limited, and environmental performance of the building restored with oodles of public money was at BREAM standards. But post-Covid, Derby College stopped its use as an events venue and Derby has lost its premier model rail event.

 

Oh that's sad. 

The other day they nearly lost a lot more than that with the flooding. It was horrendous in Derby (and even in 36E)

[arran]

HI All

 

Hmm so iv filled it in But is this gauging feeling about all this stuff because ally pally now falls into the ULEZ zone .

 

It wont be the last show to have this problem but going to exhibitions you have to look at it from a whole days cost not just one part that get on you're nerves.

 

it will increasingly hit costs for holding exhibitions with the charges filtering though to the door price as exhibitors have to change more for some vehicles and the trade with older vans not bothering attending shows in those areas .

 

Regards Arran

 

  

Edited October 24, 2023 by arran

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Exactly, this poll looks to me as though it was constructed with a particular agenda behind it. 

We don't go to shows to support the environment or to use a particular means of transport, we go to shows in order to see the show.

Pah!

[Red Devil]

Quite simply I'd avoid any show that put a 'green' charge on. 

Purely my person perspective and I have no doubt others will disagree with mine, that's fine they're allowed to.....

 

Having just been forced into upgrading my work vehicle from a perfectly acceptable 2015 Euro 5 vehicle to a Euro 6 van because of the proposed CAZ in my work area.....it was going to cost me an extra £3000/year to go to work. Yeah you can say I'm a bit disgruntled about the whole thing, nor do I fully believe in the requirement of some clean area zones or the data used to propose/implement them. 

 

I have no idea about my carbon footprint, nor do I care.....although I would imagine mine is far less than many seeing as I plant thousands of trees a year....and yes I do mean thousands!

 

Cynical about the whole thing? You betcha....