LNWR Dia. 88 Vans

[Dungrange]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The metal roof was a development of later LNWR days; I can't immediately see that it was a modification retrospectively applied to earlier vans. The timber roof came in two styles, either flush with the body end or overhanging to be flush with the end pillars.

 

It's a pity the two LNWR vans that I've pre-ordered both appear to have the same iron roof - in fact from the description they appear to be identical apart from the number.  The only LNWR period wagon being done with the wooden roof seems to be the through-piped version, which from your earlier response is perhaps too early for my post-war period.  I'm not sure if the reason for Rapido's choice of roof on the later liveried LNWR wagons is that none of the unfitted vans had the wooden roof.  The first D88 wagons were introduced in 1908 and according to Rapido's description, the iron roofs were introduced in 1910, so I would assume that these were much more common.

 

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

(Any Midland wagon of the period would be trivial in comparison - plug, plug!)

 

Yes, I'd like a few Midland wagons too - I recon they need to make up at least 10% of my East Anglian wagon fleet.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

according to Rapido's description, the iron roofs were introduced in 1910, so I would assume that these were much more common.

 

That's interesting. The impression I had got from flipping through LNWR Wagons was that there were more examples with the wooden roof. but this might reflect a bias towards earlier photos.

 

LNWR Wagons gives a table of roof types, with a reference to the Earlestown drawing number for the iron roof but no date.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The early buffers have a long plain guide; the later buffers - I think an LMS-period replacement - have a heavier, ribbed guide. I suspect these are self-contained, enabling the buffing leaf spring behind the headstock to be dispensed with.

 

Having now checked in LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2001) the heavy ribbed buffer guide was introduced in 1910, by Trevithick - I think Arthur Reginald Trevithick, the only one of Francis Trevithick's numerous offspring to have followed his father in LNWR employment, though his elder brothers worked for, inter alia, the Japanese and Egyptian State Railways.

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Trevithick_Genealogy

Edited October 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarkSG]

3 hours ago, Dungrange said:

Yes, I'd like a few Midland wagons too - I recon they need to make up at least 10% of my East Anglian wagon fleet.

 

Ditto. And, given that my current project is based on the W&U, where the primary (in fact, pretty much the only) outbound traffic was fruit and veg, it is, unusually for the timescale, a location where the most common wagon type was vans. So I could do with a few more of them, especially since most of the wagons I've bought recently have been opens. Some Midland/LMS van types would be an excellent addition, given their ubiquity, but it would be nice to have some GER/LNER types as well.

[57xx]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Unless you are really insisting on representing a vehicle on its first day out of the paint shop

 

Which is what manufacturers strive to do isn't it? Unless doing a special weathered version, where they usually just waft over some dirt on the same base colour.

 

  

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 any shade of grey darker than light grey will do. 

 

Maybe for anything painted before 1929. After that, the same logic doesn't apply.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, 57xx said:

Maybe for anything painted before 1929. After that, the same logic doesn't apply.

 

Fair point.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Zero Gravitas said:

Never mind the van - just look at the backs of those wheelsets. I've never seen anything quite like that before (or have I just not been paying attention?)

Not been paying attention ............. If you look VERY carefully at the closeup in the first post on the last page you might even see the very same wheels (?) - http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=15862 doesn't say where the Wallingford van came from.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Wickham Green too
another page

[Dungrange]

On 28/10/2023 at 17:13, MarkSG said:

Ditto. And, given that my current project is based on the W&U, where the primary (in fact, pretty much the only) outbound traffic was fruit and veg, it is, unusually for the timescale, a location where the most common wagon type was vans. So I could do with a few more of them, especially since most of the wagons I've bought recently have been opens. Some Midland/LMS van types would be an excellent addition, given their ubiquity, but it would be nice to have some GER/LNER types as well.

 

It's ditto because I'm looking at the same prototype for inspiration.  Whilst I understand that the majority of fruit (particularly the soft fruit) was exported in vans, I believe that the root vegetables were exported in open wagons.  I agree that van traffic probably dominated (it certainly did in BR days), but there is a photograph from 1913, which has has a tram with just one van, eight open wagons and a brake van.  However, there is another photograph from 1910 in which most of the wagons are vans, so it's clear that a mix of opens and vans are required to model the W&U, particularly in pre-grouping days.  My own estimate of a wagon fleet for my proposed pre-grouping layout is as below, with LNWR vans appearing fifth on that list of required stock.  The two Diagram 88s that I've now pre-ordered satisfies my immediate demand for LNWR vans, but there are plenty of other wagons that I'd like to buy.  Some seem to be available as kits, but there are some for which there doesn't appear to be a suitable kit available.

 

        12 GER Covered Vans

          4 GER Open Wagons

          3 MR Open Wagons

          3 GNR Open Wagons

          2 LNWR Covered Vans

          2 LNWR Open Wagons

          2 MR Covered Vans

          2 GWR Open Wagons

          1 GER Cattle Van

          1 GWR Covered Van

          1 GNR Covered Van

          1 GCR Open Wagon

          1 NER Open Wagon

          1 NER Covered Van

          1 L&YR Open Wagon

          1 L&YR Covered Van

          1 GER Bolster Wagon

          1 GCR Covered Van

Edited October 30, 2023 by Dungrange
duplicate word removed

[MarkSG]

21 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

It's ditto because I'm looking at the same prototype for inspiration.  Whilst I understand that the majority of fruit (particularly the soft fruit) was exported in vans, I believe that the root vegetables were exported in open wagons.  I agree that van traffic probably dominated (it certainly did in BR days), but there is a photograph from 1913, which has has a tram with just one van, eight open wagons and a brake van.  However, there is another photograph from 1910 in which most of the wagons are vans, so it's clear that a mix of opens and vans are required are required to model the W&U, particularly in pre-grouping days. 

 

It would have been very seasonal. In winter, a much greater proportion of the traffic would be inbound coal, which would obviously have used open wagons, and the outbound traffic would be root veg, which, as you say, could be either vans or opens (probably dependent mostly on what happened to be available). But in summer, the outbound traffic would be soft fruit, which needed vans, while at the same time demand for coal would be lower so there would be less need for opens.

 

This is one of the things that's both enjoyable and challenging about modelling a rural location. As well as setting the season with the use of appropriate scenery, you need to get the balance of traffic right as well. Most people prefer to model a rural location in summer or autumn (trees with leaves on are a lot easier to do than bare winter trees!), but that choice will also affect typical agricultural traffic levels which need to be considered in the train formations.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Just a query regarding the WD one, because I love me a WW2 related piece of rolling stock, it says as preserved, and gives the late grouping & early BR eras, does that mean the preserved example is replicating a WW2 era WD wagon? I'm never sure if things are WWI or WWII WD 

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Just a query regarding the WD one, because I love me a WW2 related piece of rolling stock, it says as preserved, and gives the late grouping & early BR eras, does that mean the preserved example is replicating a WW2 era WD wagon? I'm never sure if things are WWI or WWII WD 

 

The WD wagons were built for service in France during the Great War; they would in general not have been in ordinary main-line use in Britain. Examples of WD D88 wagons that are preserved are either ones that spent the entirety of their lives after repatriation working on the internal railway systems of Army or Navy bases, or else wagons sold off second-hand to such bases by the LMS or BR.

 

At least that's my understanding. EDIT: but see subsequent posts, both re. provenance of the prototype of this model and re. theatre of operation of the WD D88s.

 

I don't know what happened to post-war surplus WD wagons - many of the designs were adapted to French requirements and less suitable for use in Britain. Railway company wagons that were loaned to the WD were returned to their owning companies (barring fatalities).

 

Here's a WD D88 built in 1917 by the Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co.:

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

Edited October 30, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Here's a WD D88 built in 1917 by the Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co.:

 

Actually, I think the E prefix may mean this is a van for Egypt rather than France. There was some more detailed discussion of the whole question of WD wagons and their spheres of operation in the thread about Rapido's Great Western WD wagons.

[RapidoCorbs]

1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Just a query regarding the WD one, because I love me a WW2 related piece of rolling stock, it says as preserved, and gives the late grouping & early BR eras, does that mean the preserved example is replicating a WW2 era WD wagon? I'm never sure if things are WWI or WWII WD 

The model is as the wagon is currently preserved at Beamish. It is lettered for a WWI vehicle although the number is (I believe) a guess.

 

E1400 above is indeed for service in North Africa. Note the other differences such as inside strapping on the diagonals (although E1400 has split-spoke wheels). On the UK-based WD vans this was often later adapted to outside strapping more like the original LNWR design.

[Jon Harbour]

Damn! Hadn't intended to...but another pre-order with Hattons made...  Three LMS wagons ordered this afternoon.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

On the UK-based WD vans 

 

You slip that in but do you have anything to show much use of WD stock in Britain rather than France during the Great War?

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

The model is as the wagon is currently preserved at Beamish. It is lettered for a WWI vehicle although the number is (I believe) a guess.

 

... and based on the Sherrington article, I doubtful guess? Sherrington doesn't give any numbers in the 47xxx series but neither can I find WD 10 ton box vans listed, as opposed to those from the railway companies. Maybe all the D88 copies went to Egypt?

 

But as @GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

9 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

it says as preserved

 

and so the model is authentic as a model of the one at Beamish, and ideal for those modelling Beamish!

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You slip that in but do you have anything to show much use of WD stock in Britain rather than France during the Great War?

I'd have thought that any designated for use in a particular theatre would have departed thence pretty much  immediately.

 

If they were used in the UK first, you'd have all the hassle of gathering them together again when the time came for them to go. Easy enough with the S160s in WW2, but wagons would be a different ball game.

 

Were any commandeered by the WD for use domestically in either conflict?

 

John

Edited October 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[RapidoCorbs]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You slip that in but do you have anything to show much use of WD stock in Britain rather than France during the Great War?

Not during but some were sold post-war including one that was spotted in L&Y livery, still with inside strapping.

It's identifiable as one of the France/Belgium spec ones as it has the solid wheels and extra lamp irons.

Edited October 30, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Not during but some were sold post-war including one that was spotted in L&Y livery, still with inside strapping.

It's identifiable as one of the France/Belgium spec ones as it has the solid wheels and extra lamp irons.

 

Well there's several future product variations! A WD one sold to the L&Y will of course have been LNWR property for a year, though given the dates it's unlikely it would have been repainted during 1922. I should think some kept their L&Y livery for a good few years into the grouping, though others may have chanced to gain LMS grey quite promptly - so you can squeeze good mileage out of the WD variant tooling.  

[The Johnster]

Liveries were usually changed at the main overhaul, done at the due date.  If you can find what the overhaul interval on the LMS was, this would give you a ballpark of the final appearance of pre-grouping liveries.  Nowadays much importance is attached to branding and livery changes resulting from changes of ownership or even rebranding by the same owner are done quite quickly, but back in the day repainting was done when it was due, anything else would have been regarded as profligrate  by the shareholders!

[Wickham Green too]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

... but back in the day repainting was done when it was due, ...

Back in the day repainting was repainting - then Blue Peter* discovered sticky-back plastic ................

 

*No, not 532

[hmrspaul]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Liveries were usually changed at the main overhaul, done at the due date.  If you can find what the overhaul interval on the LMS was, this would give you a ballpark of the final appearance of pre-grouping liveries.  Nowadays much importance is attached to branding and livery changes resulting from changes of ownership or even rebranding by the same owner are done quite quickly, but back in the day repainting was done when it was due, anything else would have been regarded as profligrate  by the shareholders!

Not true now and I doubt true then.  BR gave up with any idea of regular repainting and there are plenty of privately owned wagons now which haven't been touched in 25 or more years. Look at the excellent reproduction Cavalex did of the Standard wagon TEA for Total. Total logo is still discernible on them 35 years after leaving the works. 

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Liveries were usually changed at the main overhaul, done at the due date. 

 

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Not true now and I doubt true then.

 

I'm always wary of making assumptions about how things were done before the second world war on the basis of how they were done in more recent times, even the 1960s, given the pace of technological change in the post-war period. Unlike modern wagons, paint played an important part in preserving the materials of which wagons were constructed. It is therefore reasonable to assume that some repainting was done - at the very least of replacement timber - until the 1940s. But another factor is the durability of the paint. There are plenty of examples of ex-Midland wagons wearing first LMS livery, where all that had been done was to paint a square patch over the initials M and R, with the L and S applied over. Evidently the existing paintwork was found to be in sufficiently good condition that a repaint was not required. Such wagons might well have gone from before the Great War to the early 30s - say 20 years - without a full repaint; they would certainly have been into the works several times in that period.

[Chen Melling]

On 30/10/2023 at 01:21, RapidoCorbs said:

E1400 above is indeed for service in North Africa. Note the other differences such as inside strapping on the diagonals (although E1400 has split-spoke wheels). On the UK-based WD vans this was often later adapted to outside strapping more like the original LNWR design.

As you can see from the attached drawing (from the archive collection of The Israel Railway Museum) the E-prefixed series was E1281-E1400. All these 120 wagons were built for and used by the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, mostly east of the Suez Canal, as part of the Kantara Military Railway/Jerusalem Military Railway/Palestine Military Railway.

All 120 later passed to the succeeding civilian administration, the newly mandated Palestine and its railway department, aptly named "Palestine Railways" and were later renumbered from 2000 upwards, the highest known number being 2116. Four of them survive in Israel today, of which The Israel Railway Museum has two.
The drawing also shows that the missing outside bracing was NOT replaced by inside bracing. This is also reflected in the surviving vans in Israel and all works drawings I've seen for wagons built for the Western Front, which had extra safety chains as per French practice. There is some conflicting evidence as to the number supplied thus, but I tend to believe there were 800, from 7 builders.

By the way, this drawing actually states the colour to be used for painting them - "Plain Grey" - unlike the contractor's drawings I've seen for the European-destined ones.

[Chen Melling]

On 30/10/2023 at 01:21, RapidoCorbs said:

The model is as the wagon is currently preserved at Beamish. It is lettered for a WWI vehicle although the number is (I believe) a guess.

 

Meaning no disrespect the fine work done at Beamish, I don't think 47877 is an authentic number for a WW1 condition wagon (they were originally numbered 2601-3400).