Were HST Power Cars Really Class 43?

[Cruachan]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Engines and first class.

 

21 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Seating & luggage arrangements, plus as @adb968008 says, engines.

The 400hp Cummins engines are the same as those fitted to the final ten main batch 158s (for the Welsh Marches), and the first batch of 158s for Scotrail were fitted with First class from new.

 

Though admittedly I've never been quite sure myself what physical reasons there are for differentiating 159s from 158s. They were fitted with retention toilets when refitted at Rosyth, so that set them apart from the 158s at the time, and the first class provision on the 159s was greater than the Scottish 158s.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Cruachan

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But plenty of other classes got around that, by using sub classes. An example being Class 25, which had sub classes of 25/0, 25/1, 25/2 & 25/3. The exact difference depended on what equipment was fitted. Some types were banned from working in multiple with certain other sub types, as it caused significant problems, even  though officially all Class 25s.

I never quite understood the logic behind some of this - there were several diagrams for class 76 depending on whether they were MU or boiler fitted, but all got numbered as 760xx. And the 25s sub-classes weren't number in separate blocks, as other classes were. 

 

It's as if there were several people doing the TOPS number allocations, and they all did things their own way. 

 

 

[Steadfast]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Engines and first class.

 

52 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Some time before I die I hope to discover the fundamental difference between a 158 and a 159 ! 🙄

The 159s have the 400 bhp Cummins NTA855-R3 as do 158863-872. Backed up by @Cruachanwho replied as i was typing

 

I'm not sure if the 158s converted to 159/1s retained the 350 bhp or got upgraded to 400 bhp lumps. Wikipedia suggests they kept the 350s, but well, it's Wikipedia so pinch of salt and all that.

 

Scottish 158s were apparently built with first class.

 

159s have a 4 step brake handle, the 158s have 3 step brakes.

 

Jo

Edited November 8, 2023 by Steadfast

[Cruachan]

5 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

I'm not sure if the 158s converted to 159/1s retained the 350 bhp or got upgraded to 400 bhp lumps. Wikipedia suggests they kept the 350s, but well, it's Wikipedia so pinch of salt and all that.

 

Jo

The 159/1s retain their 350hp engines.

[Wheatley]

46 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Seating & luggage arrangements, plus as @adb968008 says, engines.

158s have (had ?) at least two different types of engines within the class, AFAIR it was the First Class section which changed the classification. But then didn't some 319s have first class and others not, but they were all still 319s ? Which brings us back to my earlier point about looking for consistency where there wasn't (always) any.  

[Cruachan]

16 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

158s have (had ?) at least two different types of engines within the class, AFAIR it was the First Class section which changed the classification. But then didn't some 319s have first class and others not, but they were all still 319s ? Which brings us back to my earlier point about looking for consistency where there wasn't (always) any.  

Three different types of engine under the 158s. As noted previously, the Scottish class 158s also had first class from new.

 

And yes, the first class fitted 319s were originally just a different /1 sub class.

[Wickham Green too]

7 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

... And yes, the first class fitted 319s were originally just a different /1 sub class.

Yes, the 319's with First Class lost it and the 319s without First Class gained it - among their many and various refurbishments !

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Re-Blue Pullmans. They could (and did) operate as half-units, for example when working from Reddish depot to Derby for overhaul/repair. 

[bécasse]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, the 319's with First Class lost it and the 319s without First Class gained it - among their many and various refurbishments !

And then there were the 319/0s that included First Class for one part journey (Brighton-Blackfriars) each Monday-Friday morning with the [1] window stickers being removed after the train departed from London Bridge!

[rodent279]

Going back to HSTs coupling nose to nose, here's a (not great) shot of 43316 & 43320 coupled together at Kidderminster SVR on Sunday 5th Nov, apparently on their way to Mexico.

For the record, 43306 & 43307 were the two others in the consist, with Rail Adventure 43468 & 43480 either end.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by rodent279

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

and the first batch of 158s for Scotrail were fitted with First class from new.

Though the ScotRail units originally had 15 seats arranged 2+2 over 2 window bays; 159s have 24 seats arranged 2+1 over 5 window bays.

 

The 159s were deliberately fitted with better quality First Class seating at NSE's behest.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, Steadfast said:

159s have a 4 step brake handle, the 158s have 3 step brakes.

Both have standard Westcode 3-step brakes:

 

Step 1

Step 2

Full Service 

Emergency 

 

I've seen this 'four step' thing in one or two places, but it is incorrect.

[Steven B]

HST power cars were certainly classes as locos by 1987 as you'd find them in the loco diagram book:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_No_100_EK_N2_web.pdf

 

The HST Mk3 trailers were to be found in the diesel-electric multiple-unit diagram book. This technically implies that they're not loco-hauled coaches, but they are hauled by a loco...

 

Steven B

[RichardT]

22 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

This is one of those things where enthusiasts try to classify or define or otherwise codify something which the actual railway either didn't, or did inconsistently, or did and then changed its mind.

 

Words of wisdom which should be pinned permanently to the heading of every enthusiast and modellers’ forum and publication.

EDIT Sorry, I now see that @CWJ has already made this point.

 

Richard

Edited November 8, 2023 by RichardT
Adding a bit

[Steadfast]

35 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Both have standard Westcode 3-step brakes:

 

Step 1

Step 2

Full Service 

Emergency 

 

I've seen this 'four step' thing in one or two places, but it is incorrect.

Interesting. I guess it's like anything, published once then repeated all over! 

 

Jo

[hexagon789]

3 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Interesting. I guess it's like anything, published once then repeated all over! 

 

Jo

Quite. Many examples of that as well, in practically any aspect of trains and railways.

 

Certain publications (and authors) are or were worse for it than others. I remember a certain author who used to include the line 'caption corrects welcome' within the inside cover in all their books, but reputedly ignored any attempts, however polite at providing corrections.

 

Consequently reprints or other works with the same photos would carry the same errors, I remember even finding some of those errors on Wikipedia with some of their books as the quoted source!

 

You just can't win sometimes.

 

 

At least with the 158/159, a quick Google for a cab view will readily show the identical 3-step brake controllers.

 

I think the only use of Westcode 4-step was by London Underground, but that was simply done by blanking out 3 positions on the 7-step variety.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

... at Kidderminster SVR on Sunday 5th Nov, apparently on their way to Mexico. ...

Not, perhaps, the most obvious route to Mexico !!?!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think the next discussion should be something less contentious; was D1030 ever painted Chromatic Blue?  🤪

[rodent279]

22 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I think the next discussion should be something less contentious; was D1030 ever painted Chromatic Blue?  🤪

Or "Should 45015 have been restored?"

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Going back to HSTs coupling nose to nose, here's a (not great) shot of 43316 & 43320 coupled together at Kidderminster SVR on Sunday 5th Nov, apparently on their way to Mexico.

For the record, 43306 & 43307 were the two others in the consist, with Rail Adventure 43468 & 43480 either end.

 

43320 looks like its giving the finger to its class mate…

does it know something 43316 doesnt ?

 

That picture looks like a candidate for The Bash Mash facebook page.

Edited November 8, 2023 by adb968008

[Legend]

5 hours ago, Barclay said:

I do appreciate everyone's comments - basically it seems that the use of class 43 post-dates my youthful train spotting period, hence my lack of knowledge.

Don't stop on my account !

 

 I had my first HST model in 1977 - the Hornby trainset 253001.  It was only in 1979 that I first got to see an actual HST at Berwick Upon Tweed . It was May 79 . Because the Penmanshiel tunnel had tragically collapsed , blocking the line to Edinburgh, the HSTs were turning round at Berwick .  Because of the high reving valentas whistling away I realised then they were something completely different and for a while collected their numbers , but this was the 254xxx numbers of the unit . I remember being peeved when these numbers were discontinued and for a while you had units travelling around with different unit numbers on each end (probably 81/82?)making a farce of collecting the numbers. After that I never bothered collecting the 43xxx numbers because to me they were like coach numbers on the side of stock .  Thus ended my only real train spotting and number collecting , although always interested in trains 

[EddieK]

5 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Re-Blue Pullmans. They could (and did) operate as half-units, for example when working from Reddish depot to Derby for overhaul/repair. 

A change of direction en route could have made things interesting....

[EddieK]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

 I had my first HST model in 1977 - the Hornby trainset 253001.  It was only in 1979 that I first got to see an actual HST at Berwick Upon Tweed . It was May 79 . Because the Penmanshiel tunnel had tragically collapsed , blocking the line to Edinburgh, the HSTs were turning round at Berwick .  Because of the high reving valentas whistling away I realised then they were something completely different and for a while collected their numbers , but this was the 254xxx numbers of the unit . I remember being peeved when these numbers were discontinued and for a while you had units travelling around with different unit numbers on each end (probably 81/82?)making a farce of collecting the numbers. After that I never bothered collecting the 43xxx numbers because to me they were like coach numbers on the side of stock .  Thus ended my only real train spotting and number collecting , although always interested in trains 

When I had to commute from Stevenage to York, if an HST turned up, I always used to record the power cars and trailer cars in my notebook. A decade before, I had to travel from Swindon to Paddington every day and didn't bother with any numbers  8(

[Mike_Walker]

For a short time around 1978/9 the ER loaned some of its 254s to the WR.  One day I was presented with the sight of two PCs in adjacent platforms at Paddington sporting the same number on their noses.  No camera of course in those pre-phone days.

[MarkC]

5 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Or "Should 45015 have been restored?"

Oh gawds - please no... 🤐