Rosebud Kitmaster Restaurant Car - how accurate was it?

[MarkC]

As part of a project, I require a Mk1 Restaurant Car. I'd been perusing various second-hand outlets, when it occurred to me that somewhere in my roundtuit pile there's a couple of RK kits, acquired as part of a bulk buy some years ago. Now, I'm now away at sea until next year, so can't check for myself at present, but I wonder if anyone else has built one of these venerable kits, and if so, what are their thoughts?

 

Obviously new wheels would be required, but hopefully that would be all.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mark

Edited November 9, 2023 by MarkC
To add something

[BernardTPM]

The Kitmaster model is a Restaurant First Open and would have worked with a separate Kitchen car. With a different style of seating it would also suit an early Mk.1 FO, but it is not a self-contained Catering vehicle. It is also possible to convert then to First Corridor with a little work.

[andyman7]

It is pretty accurate (for it's time it was sensationally so). The main kit drawback are the raised moulded lines on the coach sides to assist with lining. As the kit is plastic these can be gently shaved off. As noted, with interior alterations it can make an FO and with a little more work (mainly roof vent positioning) an FK. There were few Mk1 full kitchen cars and most were withdrawn fairly early, however they could run with a Buffet Restaurant as additional seated catered accommodation.

[DCB]

I have one somewhere.     It's the same as the Bachmann FO  as far as I can recall, finding a appropriate kitchen equipped coach as a running mate is a bit of an issue.  I have been trying to find a suitable kitchen Car myself  without success (Struggling with a Comet 50 foot at present ) The Kitmaster  coaches lack interiors, though Peco did card ones I believe.
My kitmasters have brass wheels  Nucro I think, but the appearance is not to modern standards, even 1962 Triang standards really as they are so difficult to paint and the plastic is not really the right colour.  The Buffers fall off, the bogie frames spread if you try to use pin point bearings , they are very light, Worst feature is the Flush glazing which falls out and the fact they cannot easily be taken apart to refit loose glazing.     The interiors can be mocked up I use Hornby bits but it's tedious, I did a rake of Triang Caley coaches and some Thompsons recently and it was a lot of frustration, I am doing the Restaurant   at the moment (Yep its a neverwazza)    If the Kitmasters are of sentimental  value that's different but as runners they struggle to make it,  even beautifully spray painted they don't really match RTR Bachmann  and Full length Triang lowered 1mm (2mm?)  are nicer, they have pinpoints, pull easier, stay on the track better because of greater weight, and those full length Triang coaches I suggest sounded the death knell for Kitmaster coaches as Airfix never re introduced  them

[exet1095]

8 minutes ago, DCB said:

I have one somewhere.     It's the same as the Bachmann FO  as far as I can recall, finding a appropriate kitchen equipped coach as a running mate is a bit of an issue.  I have been trying to find a suitable kitchen Car myself  without success (Struggling with a Comet 50 foot at present ) The Kitmaster  coaches lack interiors, though Peco did card ones I believe.
My kitmasters have brass wheels  Nucro I think, but the appearance is not to modern standards, even 1962 Triang standards really as they are so difficult to paint and the plastic is not really the right colour.  The Buffers fall off, the bogie frames spread if you try to use pin point bearings , they are very light, Worst feature is the Flush glazing which falls out and the fact they cannot easily be taken apart to refit loose glazing.     The interiors can be mocked up I use Hornby bits but it's tedious, I did a rake of Triang Caley coaches and some Thompsons recently and it was a lot of frustration, I am doing the Restaurant   at the moment (Yep its a neverwazza)    If the Kitmasters are of sentimental  value that's different but as runners they struggle to make it,  even beautifully spray painted they don't really match RTR Bachmann  and Full length Triang lowered 1mm (2mm?)  are nicer, they have pinpoints, pull easier, stay on the track better because of greater weight, and those full length Triang coaches I suggest sounded the death knell for Kitmaster coaches as Airfix never re introduced  them

The RFO does have a (very nice) interior.

 

I would recommend replacing the bogies with ones from Replica Railways and if you wish to maintain access to the interior, glue the roof on with PVA. You can then cut through the bond if need be. 
 

It makes a nice coach.

 

Paul

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

The Kitmaster model is a Restaurant First Open and would have worked with a separate Kitchen car. With a different style of seating it would also suit an early Mk.1 FO, but it is not a self-contained Catering vehicle. It is also possible to convert then to First Corridor with a little work.

That's well understood. Many thanks. For my project, it was being used as part of a private train, and no kitchen car was in the formation, so it's not an issue.

 

The info will be useful to others though, I'm sure.

 

Brgds

Mark

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

I have one somewhere.     It's the same as the Bachmann FO  as far as I can recall, finding a appropriate kitchen equipped coach as a running mate is a bit of an issue.  I have been trying to find a suitable kitchen Car myself  without success (Struggling with a Comet 50 foot at present ) The Kitmaster  coaches lack interiors, though Peco did card ones I believe.
My kitmasters have brass wheels  Nucro I think, but the appearance is not to modern standards, even 1962 Triang standards really as they are so difficult to paint and the plastic is not really the right colour.  The Buffers fall off, the bogie frames spread if you try to use pin point bearings , they are very light, Worst feature is the Flush glazing which falls out and the fact they cannot easily be taken apart to refit loose glazing.     The interiors can be mocked up I use Hornby bits but it's tedious, I did a rake of Triang Caley coaches and some Thompsons recently and it was a lot of frustration, I am doing the Restaurant   at the moment (Yep its a neverwazza)    If the Kitmasters are of sentimental  value that's different but as runners they struggle to make it,  even beautifully spray painted they don't really match RTR Bachmann  and Full length Triang lowered 1mm (2mm?)  are nicer, they have pinpoints, pull easier, stay on the track better because of greater weight, and those full length Triang coaches I suggest sounded the death knell for Kitmaster coaches as Airfix never re introduced  them

Having built, dismantled and handled dozens of these models I have to say that built well they absolutely can look much better than Triang Mk1s. Indeed until the advent of the Bachmann model the Kitmaster version was still one of the best options for a scale flush glazed model. I've never had an issue with painting them - enamel paints adhere perfectly in my experience. Many have metal wheels fitted but substituting the bogies is a good option too.
Everything else is down to assembly - the buffers don't fall off if glued properly, the glazing needs careful attachment (ideally with liquid poly or Clearfix). They were supplied with internal weights at least the equal of Triang ones (thinner but bigger). When building it'a important to attach the roof so it can be removed for attention. The Restaurant Car has a full interior included but the BSK/SK/SO had no interior.
The reason Airfix never reintroduced them is that the moulds were damaged whilst in storage at the AIrfix Haldane Place factory when the river Wandle overflowed and wrote off a number of the Kitmaster tools!

Edited November 9, 2023 by andyman7

[sandra]

When I acquired Retford quite a few of the trains contained Kitmaster coaches. These have now all been replaced by more modern Bachman or Hornby coaches but the Kitmaster coaches were by no means too bad. Here’s a photo of two of them.

I don’t know the history of these coaches or whether they have new bogies or the original ones or what other changes have been made. However they do illustrate that a reasonable result can be achieved using Kitmaster kits.

[Il Grifone]

They have a number of faults, but can be made up into quite reasonable models.

The buffers are the wrong shape and are modelled as half way neither properly retracted or extended.

The sides and floors are 2mm too short. Unfortunately the 2mm is lost in the wheelbase and at the ends making, the doors noticeably too close to the ends. Not really relevant to the restaurant car, but the first class window spacing in the composite is incorrect, both for the prototypes, which had two lengths for these compartments, or the production version where all four were the same. As well as the moulded lining ridges, there is a ridge along the bottom of the solebar, which needs to be removed as not being on the real thing.

Being plastic the wheels need to be replaced, though they do run true unlike the contemporary Airfix wagon kits. Not requiring super free running, I fit Peco bearings to the bogies, but standard pin point bearings can be used.

Three point suspension as on all bogie vehicles gives steady running without wobble.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Il Grifone

[DCB]

I don't seem to have an all first or Restaurant First, but I found 7 coaches including a Composite or three in a box. Not really a match for a Bachmann, but a vast improvement over the Triang from the same era.  Not so much of an improvement on the later full length Triang though, especially as it came without an interior.

[Richard_A]

I have quite a few of these to build as I thought they were supposed to be better than the triang ones, I could have been wrong but not changing now, especially as I cannot justify the cost of Hornby and Bachmann ones. 

[MarkC]

All fascinating stuff. Thanks to all. I think that I'll build one of my stash in due course, bearing in mind the many useful comments made, and see how it goes.

 

Of course, one big worry will be how brittle the plastic has become, as it'll be 50+ years old?

 

Cheers

Mark

[roythebus1]

I've got a set of about 6 blood and custard KM coaches, all built by someone back in the day. They all have weight in them that were included in the kits. There'sa couple of restaurant cars in maroon that need to be rebuilt as well, and a couple of others have the Peco card interiors which really do look nice when made up and fitted.

 

The main errorI find is the channel section solebar. But run them as a complete train and they look quite good. Back in the day they were ideal for kit bashing, an article in the MRC back in 1962 showed how to make the Clacton electric units from them.

 

I really must get on with my KM Blue Pullman rebuild.

Edited November 10, 2023 by roythebus1

[DCB]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

All fascinating stuff. Thanks to all. I think that I'll build one of my stash in due course, bearing in mind the many useful comments made, and see how it goes.

Of course, one big worry will be how brittle the plastic has become, as it'll be 50+ years old?

Cheers

Mark

 

I think main challenge will be getting the glazing in securely without getting glue on the clear parts. The CK in my picture has glue one or more windows.   I guess they need to be painted (Sprayed) lined lettered varnished and finally glazed.  You need to be Michael Angelo Rembrant to paint the glazing bars...  People used MEK pack(?) supplied in a bottle and applied with a brush as adhesive, and then  Airfix and other makers made toothpaste tubes of solvent , but modern equivalents don't seem as effective.  My favourite  Evostick pipe weld works well on  Hornby and Triang plastic but not too well of the old Kitmaster.  When built don't handle them the windows pop in.   (as do 2020 Bachmann to be fair) 

[MarkC]

3 minutes ago, DCB said:

 

I think main challenge will be getting the glazing in securely without getting glue on the clear parts. The CK in my picture has glue one or more windows.   I guess they need to be painted (Sprayed) lined lettered varnished and finally glazed.  You need to be Michael Angelo Rembrant to paint the glazing bars...  People used MEK pack(?) supplied in a bottle and applied with a brush as adhesive, and then  Airfix and other makers made toothpaste tubes of solvent , but modern equivalents don't seem as effective.  My favourite  Evostick pipe weld works well on  Hornby and Triang plastic but not too well of the old Kitmaster.  When built don't handle them the windows pop in.   (as do 2020 Bachmann to be fair) 

Good advice - thank you. Regarding securing the glazing - I've got that glue that dries clear, and can be used to create glass in small apertures. I forget the name offhand. Hopefully that will work, but your point about avoiding handling is definitely one to note well.

 

Mark

[Middlesea John]

I was lucky enough to buy one at a Pontefract show a few years back which was really well made.  I've re-bogied it (if that's actually a word) and it sits well in a southern region train next to a Replica Buffet Restaurant, both in green.  I'll try to get a photo.  Well made is maybe the key.

[roythebus1]

Well made is the key. The Kitmaster plastic glue was awful stuff, it always came out in great globs which meant the builder always used too much of it. I find the modern acetone-based stuff works very well. I've not noticed KM plastic going brittle.

[Welchester]

21 hours ago, MarkC said:

Good advice - thank you. Regarding securing the glazing - I've got that glue that dries clear, and can be used to create glass in small apertures. I forget the name offhand. Hopefully that will work, but your point about avoiding handling is definitely one to note well.

 

Mark

 

Glue 'n' glaze?

[MarkC]

12 minutes ago, Welchester said:

 

Glue 'n' glaze?

That's the stuff. Thanks.

[Il Grifone]

I use Slater's Mek-Pak or similar to fix the windows. The Revell thingy with the long metal tube that clogs up can also be used. The secret is not to use too much. (Impossible with the glue bobble thingy and difficult with tube adhesive - the choices back in the day. A strand of thin wire will clear the tube, but it might be necessary to pull it out of the plastic container - care required obviously.)

 

I forgot to mention previously that the plastic gangway connectors really need to go and be replaced by something flexible  (e.g. folded black paper). They are OK at the end of fixed rakes fitted with boards, but between coaches they are about correct spacing between coaches (2 feet on the prototype) touching on straight track.

 

Drawings are available from Barrowmore.  http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

Edited November 12, 2023 by Il Grifone

[cessna152towser]

I acquired one of these coaches in a recent eBay job lot purchase.  Actually Kitmaster sides and interior fitted to an old Tri-ang chassis.  I had no immediate plans for it, but after fitting modern finer scale metal wheels it has proved a useful addition to an excursion rake.  Curiously the Lima Kitchen/Restaurant vehicle which came with it is in blue and grey and I am unsure how accurate this combination would have been.   I have also run it with a Mainline Kitchen/Restaurant car but the Mainline one has a noticeably darker shade of maroon than the Kitmaster version.

[Fat Controller]

Would this coach have had loose armchair seating? I remember such stock on the Poole- Newcastle workings in 1982.

[markw]

Yes, loose seats and angled sides to the tables, all correctly modelled by Kitmaster.

[locomad2]

I consider well built Kitmaster to be the best value for money coaches ever made for British OO, I've a few unbuilt kits and made myself  a couple 45 years ago

 

Unbuilt kits can command silly prices, but I do look out for well made 2nd hand examples, luckily this year, at a north west train fair, I came across and excellent collection and brought a few for far less than a modern single coach.

 

Southern open in green with a triang buffer car both painted in southern green

 

 

Close up showing just how much the flush windows of the Kitmaster looked better

 

 

Recent purchases all had metal wheels with little brass bearing cups, they run very smooth and superb with no rocking and 12 coaches easily hauled by a Wrenn Duchess, plus the bogies accept both tension lock or Peco coupling. On these examples a wire loop system used making very close coupling.

 

I have noticed slightly wider than most coaches, but just fits the gauge.

 

Ive a Blue Pullman Kitchen was it the only  Kitmaster "Kitchen" car made ? using Lima bogies, but now recently fitted bogies from a unbuilt kit, found the plastic ok used metal wheels and peco metal bearing.

 

 

 

 

[Il Grifone]

On 16/11/2023 at 16:08, cessna152towser said:

I acquired one of these coaches in a recent eBay job lot purchase.  Actually Kitmaster sides and interior fitted to an old Tri-ang chassis.  I had no immediate plans for it, but after fitting modern finer scale metal wheels it has proved a useful addition to an excursion rake.  Curiously the Lima Kitchen/Restaurant vehicle which came with it is in blue and grey and I am unsure how accurate this combination would have been.   I have also run it with a Mainline Kitchen/Restaurant car but the Mainline one has a noticeably darker shade of maroon than the Kitmaster version.

 

The blue/grey livery followed on from the maroon, so running them together is quite possible, especially as the restaurant car has maroon ends, indicating a recent repaint/overhaul. Catering vehicles tended to head the list (along with sleeping cars) for Commonwealth or B4 replacement bogies.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Il Grifone