Rapido US rethinking their level of detail in N - a straw in the wind?

[RichardT]

I've just received the most recent Rapido US Newsletter, 90% of which was of no interest to me because, as usual, it was predominately H0 and I dabble in US N. But then at the very end was this interesting statement, and in particular the penultimate paragraph (my emboldening):

 

"We’ve heard the requests. We know there is aN elephant in the room.

 

We quite frankly misread the market and that’s on us, not you. It’s time to look inward. A prime example of this is our recent VIA/CN sets that were cancelled due to low orders. As well as being a bit niche for the average N scale modeler, we realize now that it was simply too much train for too much money. Lesson learned!

 

Additionally, we’ve reassessed our entire N scale strategy and have decided to shift our focus going forward. Our freight car offerings have been very hit-or-miss, so we’ll be moving away from that side of the market and concentrating on what has generally done well overall - locomotives and passenger equipment.

 

That said, we’ve decided to tie up some loose ends and just push forward with the Procor 5820 pellet hoppers. We’ve sent the purchase order off to the factory and plan to make extra inventory should interest in this car pick up down the road.

 

The RR56 reefer, however, is simply unprofitable at this point and will be shelved for the time being. Apologies to those who were anxiously awaiting them, but at the end of the day we’re a business that employs many people in multiple countries and would like to continue to do so!

 

Another thing we’ve heard you loud and clear on is our level of detail. Things like cut levers and separate grabs aren’t what most N scalers seem to want, so we’re planning to simplify things a bit. What’s important is overall dimensional accuracy, crisp paint and lettering, and most critically of all, operational reliability; properly running trains are the best trains!

 

So hang in there guys, more N scale is coming soon. We have something awesome planned for Christmas, with more good stuff to follow in 2024.

 

Onward!

 

Jeremy"

 

As I said in the title - a straw in the wind?

 

Richard T

 

[woodenhead]

For the US market certainly.

 

They've hardly touched UK N so far and the Co-bo was an example in what happens if the dangly add ons are too fragile, but on the other side they didn't try and do early variants with the wrap round windows which I guess in any other scale would be expected.

 

The 44 should have less dangly bits and I'm not expecting too much extra add on details beyond pipes and discs.  The wagons so far produced (Con flats) don't go overboard on the level of detail and the SECR wagons look to be sensibly built too.  Where there is a chance of going overboard on detail might be the OAA which is probably the closest so far to a US style wagon with all the piping/brake systems underneath and at £23 per wagon they are keenly priced I would say.

 

The UK pricing strategy has also been keen, the Co-bo was a bargain, I expect the 44 a little more expensive as times have changed and it will be interesting to see where other stock pitches in price going forward but I've not seen evidence of premium pricing of anything Rapido in the UK so far really.

 

The exception is probably going to be the N gauge Dynamometer car, but that is really the type of one off model where detail and price are expected to be a little higher.

Edited November 9, 2023 by woodenhead
cant spell Dynamometer

[Matt.S.]

They have tended towards relatively niche choices in N scale and speaking from experience the design and packaging hasn't worked well together. I have repaired all three bulkhead flats, but the US market doesn't expect this and tends to show it by avoiding future models.

[jjb1970]

This is one of those subjective debates, everyone has an opinion and an idea of what they'd like from a model. I suspect if people are asked if they want maximum achievable detail and fidelity most RMWeb users would answer with a loud yes. If you asked then whether models should be robust, usable and not unduly fragile or prone to shedding bits I suspect you'd get another loud yes. And to ask another question, if you asked people whether price is important or if they're willing to pay whatever it costs without worrying about price I suspect most would say that although they're willing to pay for a quality product they aren't willing to write out a blank cheque to manufacturers. So it's a trilemma (to use the management-ese buzz word) and both enthusiasts and manufacturers will be looking at optimum balance.

 

I am an enthusiast of Japanese N. The Japanese have a very different philosophy in N (one which I think is worthy of a discussion of its own), while companies like Kato, Tomix, Micro Ace etc are fully capable of going all out for detail if they wanted to (look at Tomix Prestige in 1/80), they don't do so in N. They put great effort into getting contours and shape right (and that must be challenging for some Japanese types which are borderline bonkers in industrial design), nailing the liveries (again not always easy for some Japanese types) and first class running qualities. They then apply what Hornby called 'design clever' when it comes to detail and their models only use seperately applied detail where it makes a difference to overall impression, don't really bother with hidden underframe detail, coach end stuff for fixed formation trains etc. There's an element of impressionism, it's about making models 'look right', a highly subjective idea and one which blends engineering with art as it's not just about applying a shrink ray approach. However, running qualities are superb (still the benchmark in my opinion) and prices might make UK and European N gauge enthusiasts weep. The price largely results from the scale of production and size of the market for N in Japan, but is also a function of what technical people might call value engineering and putting money where it matters.

 

Another case study at the opposite end of the spectrum is Chinese HO, another interest of mine (you may get the idea I love Asian trains, and I do). Chinese HO models are exquisite, companies like ChangMing, N27, XingXing have made some models which push the envelope with what is achievable with detail, seperate parts, multimedia construction, under frame details and trick features. Some of the models are quite remarkable, but perhaps counter intuitively given how many in the west view China prices may make many weep for the other reason (they're not cheap) and they can be ridiculously fragile to he point that just removing them from the box is a fraught experience. I view them as almost a modern day equivalent to brass, beautiful display objects which aren't great for running.

 

I really think the Japanese approach is worthy of further study, the below is a model of one of my favourite Shinkansen types, the series 500 by Tomix (AKA 'the other' big Japanese manufacturer, which is actually bigger than Kato). It's superbly done in terms of shape and finish but detail is what is necessary for a layout model. This cost me (new, not pre-owned) S$160, less than £100 for the set (including superb packaging) and runs like a dream, smooth and silent. Now that price was like most UK models in being discounted, and didn't have 20% VAT etc so I don't think you'd pay that in the UK (I know so) but the price should still be an awful lot less than UK and European outline EMU sets. Would modellers accept this, or is it more important to go all out for detail? It's a question with no 'right' or 'wrong' answer but it's a genuine question and one which is seldom asked perhaps because when Hornby tried it in OO they didn't do it well and prices didn't reflect the different approach.

[roundhouse]

With the amount of detail under many Rapido models perhaps it good to have dodgy track and derailments to show it all off  although at the risk of breaking the detail ontop of the model.🙂

 

I have accidentally knocked off some of the detail on my HO scale Rapido coaches but luckily managed to find the bits to put back on as it was at home and not at a show.

 

With my N scale stock I have some highly detailed freight cars but when in amongst a long train you just dont see all that detail.

Edited November 10, 2023 by roundhouse

[njee20]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

This is one of those subjective debates, everyone has an opinion and an idea of what they'd like from a model. I suspect if people are asked if they want maximum achievable detail and fidelity most RMWeb users would answer with a loud yes. If you asked then whether models should be robust, usable and not unduly fragile or prone to shedding bits I suspect you'd get another loud yes. And to ask another question, if you asked people whether price is important or if they're willing to pay whatever it costs without worrying about price I suspect most would say that although they're willing to pay for a quality product they aren't willing to write out a blank cheque to manufacturers. So it's a trilemma (to use the management-ese buzz word) and both enthusiasts and manufacturers will be looking at optimum balance.

 

I am an enthusiast of Japanese N. The Japanese have a very different philosophy in N (one which I think is worthy of a discussion of its own), while companies like Kato, Tomix, Micro Ace etc are fully capable of going all out for detail if they wanted to (look at Tomix Prestige in 1/80), they don't do so in N. They put great effort into getting contours and shape right (and that must be challenging for some Japanese types which are borderline bonkers in industrial design), nailing the liveries (again not always easy for some Japanese types) and first class running qualities. They then apply what Hornby called 'design clever' when it comes to detail and their models only use seperately applied detail where it makes a difference to overall impression, don't really bother with hidden underframe detail, coach end stuff for fixed formation trains etc. There's an element of impressionism, it's about making models 'look right', a highly subjective idea and one which blends engineering with art as it's not just about applying a shrink ray approach. However, running qualities are superb (still the benchmark in my opinion) and prices might make UK and European N gauge enthusiasts weep. The price largely results from the scale of production and size of the market for N in Japan, but is also a function of what technical people might call value engineering and putting money where it matters.

 

Another case study at the opposite end of the spectrum is Chinese HO, another interest of mine (you may get the idea I love Asian trains, and I do). Chinese HO models are exquisite, companies like ChangMing, N27, XingXing have made some models which push the envelope with what is achievable with detail, seperate parts, multimedia construction, under frame details and trick features. Some of the models are quite remarkable, but perhaps counter intuitively given how many in the west view China prices may make many weep for the other reason (they're not cheap) and they can be ridiculously fragile to he point that just removing them from the box is a fraught experience. I view them as almost a modern day equivalent to brass, beautiful display objects which aren't great for running.

 

I really think the Japanese approach is worthy of further study, the below is a model of one of my favourite Shinkansen types, the series 500 by Tomix (AKA 'the other' big Japanese manufacturer, which is actually bigger than Kato). It's superbly done in terms of shape and finish but detail is what is necessary for a layout model. This cost me (new, not pre-owned) S$160, less than £100 for the set (including superb packaging) and runs like a dream, smooth and silent. Now that price was like most UK models in being discounted, and didn't have 20% VAT etc so I don't think you'd pay that in the UK (I know so) but the price should still be an awful lot less than UK and European outline EMU sets. Would modellers accept this, or is it more important to go all out for detail? It's a question with no 'right' or 'wrong' answer but it's a genuine question and one which is seldom asked perhaps because when Hornby tried it in OO they didn't do it well and prices didn't reflect the different approach.

I think it depends on the model. The Kato 800 received lots of plaudits, and it employs a similar approach - lots of moulded detail and omission of ‘unimportant’ detail. It’s not bad, but it does look less detailed to my eye, and that’s on something (much like that 500 series) which is inherently ‘simple’. I think if Kato did that on something that had a lot more going on it would be a bit disappointing. The 66 is perhaps a good example for the UK market. We have two dated models, Dapol are bringing a new super detailed one to market. Kato have done one previously, which is on par with the 15 year old models we have. I’m not sure the market wants another less detailed one, without native DCC capability, NEM couplings and all the other standards Kato eschew in the interest of simplicity. The performance is always good though. 
 

Conversely I can see why scale cut levers would be insanely fragile, and I also understand the ‘you can’t see it as part of a rake’ philosophy.

 

Personally I think the level of detail we have now is fine, and I’m ok with the pricing, however stuff does need to work. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by njee20

[scottystitch]

An excellent question, and I'm very interested to see how Rapido do with their change of tack.

 

As far as UK outline N gauge goes, I think we are about as far as we need to go with regards detail. Realistically and practically, how much more detail do we need on a Farish Mk1 or Thompson carriage? I look at "current" models such as the Farish Classes 42, 40, 8F, Dapol 22, 52, etc. and see no need to go further. The only caveat to that would be, after having some class 24 conversions done by Mercig, the current range of diesels would benefit from etched roof grills and fans, but other than that, I'm not so sure.  Maybe developing a method of incorporating more weight and improving the mechanisms, particularly on steam locomotives. 

 

Best

Scott.

[Steven B]

14 hours ago, woodenhead said:

They've hardly touched UK N so far and the Co-bo was an example in what happens if the dangly add ons are too fragile, but on the other side they didn't try and do early variants with the wrap round windows which I guess in any other scale would be expected.

 

It wasn't so much the fragility of the dangly add-ons that were the issue with the class 28, but the tolerances of the fit. On my two examples the brake pipes only just clear the bogies as they rotate. Other owners of the model weren't quite so lucky.

 

I think I agree with the comment above that we've probably reached peak detail in N. I can't see the need for more separately applied parts. The current Mk1 was a big step up from the old Poole era one, but other than adding lighting the only thing missing is the lamp irons (frustratingly molded as part of the gangway cover).

 

To my mind Farish, Rapido and Revolution are perhaps a little way beyond what my ideal level of detail would be. Kato's Eurostar and class 800 are someway below. Dapol aren't far off but need a little more finesse - their Collett coaches aren't quite up there with the Farish Hawksworth; They'd look odd in the same train I feel.

 

 

Steven B

 

[woodenhead]

@Steven B in personal experience the bits under the loco are very fragile - one bit came off quite quickly and I've had to be very careful with the rest whereas Farish and Dapol locos (and the new RevolutioN class 128) are a lot more robust in that respect.

[phil gollin]

On 09/11/2023 at 23:27, woodenhead said:

.

 

...   They've hardly touched UK N so far and the Co-bo was an example in what happens if the dangly add ons are too fragile, but on the other side they didn't try and do early variants with the wrap round windows which I guess in any other scale would be expected.  ...

 

.

.

 

Well, Heljan don't agree with you.

 

.

[woodenhead]

7 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Well, Heljan don't agree with you.

 

.

In OO which is a much larger market than N.

[jjb1970]

On 10/11/2023 at 16:15, njee20 said:

I think it depends on the model. The Kato 800 received lots of plaudits, and it employs a similar approach - lots of moulded detail and omission of ‘unimportant’ detail. It’s not bad, but it does look less detailed to my eye, and that’s on something (much like that 500 series) which is inherently ‘simple’. I think if Kato did that on something that had a lot more going on it would be a bit disappointing. The 66 is perhaps a good example for the UK market. We have two dated models, Dapol are bringing a new super detailed one to market. Kato have done one previously, which is on par with the 15 year old models we have. I’m not sure the market wants another less detailed one, without native DCC capability, NEM couplings and all the other standards Kato eschew in the interest of simplicity. The performance is always good though. 
 

Conversely I can see why scale cut levers would be insanely fragile, and I also understand the ‘you can’t see it as part of a rake’ philosophy.

 

Personally I think the level of detail we have now is fine, and I’m ok with the pricing, however stuff does need to work. 

 

 

Japanese N manufacturers do use separately fitted details, some are factory fitted and other parts are user fit. This includes nose grab handles and coupler lift bars for locomotives, and for types like EF63 and some EF64 the extensive MU cables. 

 

Japanese models really need to be considered in the context of their approach to model railways which has a much greater degree of impressionism than European railway modelling. I have seen some outstanding layouts built using Kato or Tomix set track and using just masts and spans to represent overhead catenary. People will like or dislike how they do railway modelling in Japan but I find myself leaning to it in N.

 

The difference is also apparent in attitudes to DCC and sound. The Japanese scene is predominantly analogue, it's not down to a lack of capability but much more a response to the market. Kato do their custom shop factory specials with DCC and sound but it's a tiny niche for them. Tenshodo made a range of 16.5mm 1/80 models which were DCC sound fitted and with other digital trick features. They were beautifully done, metal bodies and incredible finish but they seemed to linger with dealers and many are still readily available new. Tomix 1/80 models are superb, but all analogue. Personally I like DCC for train control but am uninterested in sound and other digital functions.

[davknigh]

A small moment of pedantry if I may, Rapido is a Canadian company that produces models for the North American market. The company name is Rapido Trains, no USA, no Canada, just Rapido. FWIW the Rapido was a Canadian National passenger train that ran between Toronto and Montreal in the ‘60s before the advent of Via Rail.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[EMA747]

I've just stumbled across this interesting thread. It's all very subjective of course but as someone returning to the hobby after a long break between my late teens and now getting back in to it in my early 40s I will add my 2p worth.

 

When I was young I don't remember being obsessed with detail. As an adult it is more of a concern. I guess some of that comes down to what you can afford. I do find myself drawn to the Japanese N gauge manufacturers (not got any yet) because of their pricing and to me acceptable level of detail. If I had children I would definitely be looking at Japanese N gauge as a good affordable route in to the hobby. 

 

For me a big issue is reliability and running quality. I have a number of Bachmann OO9 models which are absolutely stunning but very expensive. I consider myself very lucky to be able to afford them and love the models. However I have had to return for repair 2 and about to return a 3rd for running problems. The rest run well but I do need to keep the track and wheels clean. I have looked at N gauge for my second smaller layout and have read many things on here and elsewhere about running quality and manufacturing issues with UK N gauge. I find that this is a major negative which is only heightened when the price is factored in as well. As JJB1970 says above a complete Kato set can be had for a considerably lesser sum than a UK manufacture loco. Kato by all accounts have amazing running quality and reliability too. To me it seems that with a UK N gauge loco the positives are the detail but the negatives are much more expensive and probably not as good running. 

 

Of course it's all down to the individual priorities for everyone and we are lucky to have such a big choice these days that there is something for everyone. 

[RichardT]

On 13/11/2023 at 15:41, davknigh said:

A small moment of pedantry if I may, Rapido is a Canadian company that produces models for the North American market. The company name is Rapido Trains, no USA, no Canada, just Rapido. FWIW the Rapido was a Canadian National passenger train that ran between Toronto and Montreal in the ‘60s before the advent of Via Rail.

 

Cheers,

 

David

Thank you for that. I see that in my original post I did call them Rapido US, which is of course a terrible insult as they are very (and vocally) proud of being a Canadian company. However, their UK presence is called “Rapido UK”, not just Rapido, and they also issue newsletters. I wanted to make sure that RMWebbers realised that the extract I posted was from their North American arm, not the UK branch, as of course many UK modellers just call the UK arm “Rapido”, not “Rapido UK”.  FWIW Rapido is also a common term for the ugly standard European n gauge coupler fitted by rtr manufacturers, so I realise that I should probably also have made it clear that the newsletter wasn’t from a European coupler manufacturer. The coupling originated with Arnold Rapido, now part of Hornby I believe.  Ironically, Hornby make no N gauge products, detailed or otherwise, for the Canadian market, which is where we came in so I think I’ll stop there. We now return to our scheduled programming (UK)/programing (Canada & US).

 

RT