CCW Wooden Gresley Coaches

[Rosie Taylor]

I've covered the history of these particular models in another post, but I'll summarise; I inherited these coaches from an older relative when he passed away some 20 years ago. They were part-built wooden kits, I initially assumed scratchbuilt but with the help of some on this forum have identified them as CCW kits, circa 1954:

I found it hard to believe anyone ever made kits from wood! I was too young and inexperienced to do anything with them for a long time, and so they gathered dust in the attic until recently. Now I have the skills, knowledge and motivation to make them into something resembling a finished coach...

I've accepted they won't ever be a scale replica of the prototype; the wood used for the body has over-scale grain, the body-sides are too thick (and so the glazing is too "inset"), the brake coach is missing the prototypical stepped sides (the guards compartment is slightly narrower than the passenger compartments), the roof has a join with each end that is hard to hide, etc, etc. However, I'm keen to make a good go of it as a tribute to the deceased relative, and as a fun project. Although I was young when I knew him, he was always nice to me and encouraged and shared my interest in railways. I'm not sure why he never finished the kits, but I'd like to think he would approve of the project!

 

So what do we have to start with? Well, I've chosen the two coaches in the best condition, although they're not in the best shape...

 

An LNER Gresley 3-Compartment Corridor Brake Third

 

And a Gresley Vestibule Third. As you can see, the window framing on one side has bowed and come away from the base. This plus roofs for the two coaches was all I have to start with, although at time of writing I've already acquired a lot of whitemetal and brass etched goodies to finish (some of a similar vintage as the coaches!)

[Rosie Taylor]

The first thing I did was set about fixing the bowed and broken window frames/top sides. I held the parts roughly in place using temporary plasticard bracing and used liberal amounts of superglue to reattach the wood - my thinking is this would soak into the grain and create a strong bond, as well as bonding the wood fibres solid to allow more precise filing and shaping. I wasn't too worried about the glue staining the wood as this would be sanded back and stained anyway.

 

 

Once dry, I used needle files to tidy up the window cutouts, removing loose wood fibres and sharpening the corners. The difference is subtle but I think it's had a big effect, especially when looking at the coach as a whole.

 

 

The windows on the right of the tape have been dressed with a file, the ones on the left I still had to do. If you squint you can just about make out the wood fibres still to remove. The improvement is a little more noticeable after sanding and varnishing, but I'll get to that.

[Bucoops]

Very interesting - I've seen these kits on ebay but not up close as it were. Thank you for sharing, including the all important back story to them.

[Rosie Taylor]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

Very interesting - I've seen these kits on ebay but not up close as it were. Thank you for sharing, including the all important back story to them.

The design of the kit is interesting in it's simplicity, and how the kitmakers worked around using what materials were available at the time. I've seen that later kits had cast whitemetal ends

[Rosie Taylor]

Greatful to those leaving positive reactions, glad this is of interest!

I experimented with various wood-stains to try and get the wood closer to a "teak" look. I used to be a professional woodworker so have a lot of wood-stain sample pots, as well as what I thought was a decent knowledge of various wood-types. Apparently not. I know what the wood used isn't, but not what it is. No matter, my trial patches on the underneath showed that a Teak wood-stain looked best. Who would have thought...

 

 

(The different shades show with/without varnish applied on top of the stain)

To achieve the slight different shades/colours on different "panels" on the coach sides, I scribed out where these would be, the scribelines also leaving a guide for the beading (to be added later). I then applied many different layers of various stains, on top of a general coat of Teak stain. The effect is subtle but builds nicely (I think), quite like weathering. A lot of trial and error, but as it's so subtle it's difficult to mess it up.

 

 

I've already started adding the beading, and it really helps bring it all together (promise)!

 

[MikeTrice]

Before adding the beading I think I would have been tempted to use some form of grain filler.

[Rosie Taylor]

21 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Before adding the beading I think I would have been tempted to use some form of grain filler.

I think you're right. The varnish will hopefully fill the larger grain, but yes I should have dealt with that first

[A Murphy]

I think this is a great project. I can't wait to see a finished coach, but no pressure!  🙂👍

[doilum]

Excellent work. Finescale wheels?

[Rosie Taylor]

4 hours ago, A Murphy said:

I think this is a great project. I can't wait to see a finished coach, but no pressure!  🙂👍

Thanks, me too!

[Rosie Taylor]

2 hours ago, doilum said:

Excellent work. Finescale wheels?

Thanks. I'll be using Peter's Spares own brand 14mm disc wheels; I've used their wheels before and like them a lot. I model 00 gauge but use SMP track and handmade points, I find their wheels work quite well together

[Rosie Taylor]

I wont have any updates for a couple of days due to work and parenthood, but have a preview of all the goodies I've collected to finish these coaches...

 

 

(Hmm, first image is rotated even when the original isnt? Apologies)

 

I found two sets of the correct pattern bogies second hand, and was keen to find something of a similar vintage as the coach kit itself. Coachmaster was a brand under ABS Models I believe? They're whitemetal only, and the unpackaged set is only part complete and pretty rough, although I believe they can be built up into some well running bogies.

 

 

Some more helpful packages, courtesy of Comet/Wizard Models. The etched bogie frame is to help complete the partial whitemetal set, and while I was shopping I found the rest - gangways, buffers, details for each end such as lighting jumper cables, alarm mechanisms, etc. I also have a package with the correct roof vents, door handles etc on it's way. Have I done my research properly or is there a glaring omission/something incorrect? I'm fairly new to both LNER and coaches from this period, although fairly familiar with coach-building in general.

[MikeTrice]

I suspect the gangways might be undersized. You might like to check out

If you go back through the topic you will also find some scale drawings that might help.

 

Good luck.

[Rosie Taylor]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

I suspect the gangways might be undersized. You might like to check out

If you go back through the topic you will also find some scale drawings that might help.

 

Good luck.

I've been following that thread with interest! I'll go through it again to check my working

[Rosie Taylor]

I've had somewhat of a "Stop the presses!" moment thanks to @MikeTrice, who linked me to his amazing thread on Western Thunder forums with a massive amount of prototype detail and photos (I've also been following his great thread on ex-Kirk coach kits here as linked above).

 

It's both encouraging/inspiring and overwhelming, and now I need to make a decision regarding the rest of the project... I knew such information was out there, but decided to not get too bogged down in research as these coaches could never be scale replicas anyway and would require too many compromises. However, with Mike's thread and such a wealth of helpful information in one place, I can't help but want to replicate every little detail. Is this futile with what I've started with though, with so many innacuracies built into the wooden bodies?

 

It's the eternal modeller's question of how much detail to try and achieve. I have a whitemetal MTK kit of a Class 40 that is posing me a similar problem, how much do I try and replicate the prototype when what I'm starting with is so problematic and innacurate?

 

Something to think on. Meanwhile, I've cleaned the whitemetal bogie kits in the ultrasonic cleaner and filed smooth the mating surfaces and any flash (of which there was quite a lot!), ready for soldering together.

 

[Bucoops]

I would say treat them as what they are - a product of their time with sentimental significance. Build them as intended with maybe the odd embellishment but don't try to make super detail models out of them.

[BernardTPM]

Thought: Some Gresley coaches actually had steel panelling, but were painted to represent wood. Perhaps here the varnished wood could have the beading painted on to represent steel painted like wood. At least the kit is made the grain runs correctly; horizontal below waist, vertical above.

[melmerby]

Some later steel coaches had rather plain "Teak" paint jobs but some such as the diag 304 twins had the full works complete with simulated beading as part of the paint scheme.

(Somewhat echoing the GWR from when they started making non beaded steel coaches, the paint shop still painted them in.🙂)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Starnge that the photo is claimed to be Copyright Steve Banks 2021, as in a book I have (first published 1994), it is copyright NRM😄

[Rosie Taylor]

Thanks for the ideas - I think I'm going to carry on as @Bucoops suggests, building them as well as I can but accepting the limitations of the kits. Most important in this project is to enjoy myself! It's difficult to not want to put every rivet and pipe-run on, but that would be a little silly considering the origins of the kit.

 

Having said that, I think using the brass etched parts I have (alarm tells, underframe, door handles, etc) will help "sell" the model a lot. I've found before that the eye is drawn to finer, intricate details and helps distract from flaws or crude compromises. Let's just hope that's the case with this project...

 

I've been making steady progress with the beading, but it's quite tedious so have been breaking it up with work on the bogies. Will post more update photos as soon as I can work out how to upload images that aren't rotated!

 

 

[roythebus1]

I knew Adrian Swain of ABS Models personally, he used to produce bus kits for me many years ago. He was one of the design team for Concorde and everything had to be right. He was a stickler for detail. His LNER bogies are superb for what they are. Once the flash is cleaned off, use a low melt solder to put them together along with Carr's Red Label flux.

 

If it's any help, I've recently acquired a CCW pullman car kit unbuilt in its box, if you're interested in adding that to your train.

[Rosie Taylor]

3 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

I knew Adrian Swain of ABS Models personally, he used to produce bus kits for me many years ago. He was one of the design team for Concorde and everything had to be right. He was a stickler for detail. His LNER bogies are superb for what they are. Once the flash is cleaned off, use a low melt solder to put them together along with Carr's Red Label flux.

 

If it's any help, I've recently acquired a CCW pullman car kit unbuilt in its box, if you're interested in adding that to your train.

 

Interesting; they are certainly well detailed bogies, considering they're entirely cast of whitemetal. There was a lot of flash but they clean up well and are smooth running. The one weak point I've discovered was the method of fixing to the coaches, but I'll cover that when I have something to show.

 

Thanks for the offer of the coach, but I really shouldn't - my pile of unfinished projects is already quite large!

[Rosie Taylor]

The best way I could come up with to do the beading was using 0.5mm Plastruct Rod - I would have preferred to use real wood obviously but I'm not sure it exists in those sizes! At least, I couldn't find it. I spent a while mixing up paint to be the best match to the colour of the varnished wood of the coach body, using what enamels I have.

 

 

It's not perfect of course, but I think it's close enough. I'll be doing a light wash over everything and some subtle weathering using very thin oil paint, so hopefully this will help. There's always the lining as well, which will disguise the beading even more. I gave the coaches a coat of gloss varnish first, the idea being this would help the styrene "stick" better and fill the woodgrain somewhat. I used some "Lord Nelson" varnish, brushed on. I'd never heard of it before (I believe it's for model boats, hence the product image) but dries thick and was available for cheap at my local hobby shop.

 

 

Once I'd primed the styrene (using a rattlecan of Halfords grey) and airbrushed on my brown mixture, I started fitting the beading following my scribe marks for the panels. I used Plastic Magic solvent and just held it into place until it "set" - I guess it melted enough to adhere to the varnished wood. It's not the strongest joint but I'll be varnishing over it all anyway.

 

 

The spacing between beading isn't quite correct, but I have one side finished now and I really like how it looks. It is tedious and time consuming so I've been taking a break to work on the bogies, I'll post an update regarding them next.

[roythebus1]

You're doing a good job there. It's difficult to get beading right; most folks, and especially pattern makers for whitemetal kits, make it oversize because by the time it gets built and painted with paint that's too thick, it soon loses its depth. You may be better off applying the beading before you use varnish, that way the solvent will seep into the wood a lot easier. Track builders use stuff like that for sticking abs chairs to wooden sleepers with no problems.

 

To mount the ABSwain bogies, the oval pivot plate screws into the wooden floor, the top-hat  cast bushes go through the big hole in the bogie and screw into the swivel mounting plate using an 8BA screw. I seem to remember you need to fix an 8BA nut under the oval mounting plate. I have spares of all those parts if you need any.

Edited November 27, 2023 by roythebus1

[Rosie Taylor]

23 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

You're doing a good job there. It's difficult to get beading right; most folks, and especially pattern makers for whitemetal kits, make it oversize because by the time it gets built and painted with paint that's too thick, it soon loses its depth. You may be better off applying the beading before you use varnish, that way the solvent will seep into the wood a lot easier. Track builders use stuff like that for sticking abs chairs to wooden sleepers with no problems.

 

To mount the ABSwain bogies, the oval pivot plate screws into the wooden floor, the top-hat  cast bushes go through the big hole in the bogie and screw into the swivel mounting plate using an 8BA screw. I seem to remember you need to fix an 8BA nut under the oval mounting plate. I have spares of all those parts if you need any.

Ah you're totally right regarding beading before varnishing - that makes complete sense. I've been doing one side at a time so I'll try sanding the next side free of varnish before trying more beading.

 

Regarding the bogies, I see the way the instructions want me to attach them to the coach floor, but it's giving me pause for thought. The kit provides a self tapping screw that the instructions seem to advise screwing into the whitemetal bushing? I'd expect that would strip out just by looking at it, but don't have a lot of experience screwing into whitemetal (having only used such parts as details on brass frames). I hadn't examined an alternative yet but was thinking along the lines of using a seperate screw and nut as you suggest.

 

Many thanks for the encouragment and help! And for the offer of spares, but as I've combined one pair of bogies with a Comet brass etch, I have doubles of a few components already.