GUV/CCTs in passenger trains

[InterCity110]

Did GUV/CCTs run with passenger trains? Specifically from BR blue or later

Edited November 19, 2023 by InterCity110

[montyburns56]

GUVs definitely did, but I've never seen a CCT in a passenger train. That may be because they were speed restricted?

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by montyburns56

[bécasse]

CCTs and other 4-wheel vans (notably SR U-vans) would have been seen in trains that conveyed both passengers and parcels, often at one or other end of the working day, but such trains tended to become much rarer as the 1960s progressed. An example familiar to me was the 7.12am Holborn Viaduct (NA)/7.24am London Bridge to Dover Priory which was formed of a MkI 3-set and a whole string of vans, mainly 4-wheelers, and hauled by a D1 or E1 4-4-0 (or even a C 0-6-0 on occasions), an E5000 electric loco taking over haulage from June 1961 until the train's demise the following year. The return working in the early evening ran via Redhill and East Croydon into Cannon Street, worked by a Crompton from June 1961.

[pH]

Glimpse of a CCT in a passenger train in 1965:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/80572914@N06/7398258268

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by pH

[Halvarras]

I remember when the first air-braked Mark 2a/b stock arrived in Cornwall in 1971 (needless to say the 'Cornish Riviera Express' was the first beneficiary) there were two dual-braked GUVs, W86665 & W86669, clearly earmarked to work with them, instead of Mark 1 BGs, as they turned up regularly enough for me to memorize their numbers (obviously!) 

(Just to clarify, they were used singly, not both together.)

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

... I've never seen a CCT in a passenger train. That may be because they were speed restricted?  ...

There was a ban on four- and six-wheeled stock in passenger trains from --/--/6- ................ hopefully someone can fill in the missing digits !

[The Johnster]

If there is such a date, it will be later than /6 and probably later than /7.  The situation during my time on the railway, 1970-8, was that any and all NPCCS (Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock), basically parcels vehicles, could run in a passenger train.  If it was steam-heating period of course they had to be fitted with steam pipes if they were to be marshalled between the loco and the passenger stock, and of course they were subject to their own speed restrictions.  These were 90mph for bogie vehicles, 75mph for long-wheelbase four-wheel CCT/PMV/Fruit D, BY, and LMS or LNER BZ  six-wheelers.  SPVs, converted from fish vans and fitted with roller bearings, were restricted to 60mph.  These restriction obviously prevented their being marshalled in passenger trains running to booked timings in excess of those speeds, but don't forget the first generation dmus were speed restricted to 70mph (and some of ours had trouble getting up to that on the flat if there was a bit of a headwind), so the long-wheelbase four-wheelers and six-wheelers would not have been an issue on such services.

 

Following the 1969 single manning agreement which allowed guards of parcels (or any other fully fitted) trains to ride in the rear cab of the loco, there were still some services on which it was necessary for the guard to ride in a brake compartment on the train though no steam heating could be provided, so some 75mph NPCCS were provided with stoves in guards' compartments.  The ex-LMS six-wheeled BG vehicles were called 'STOVE' because of this, but some ex-Southern Rly. 4-wheel BY and bogie B vans were also equipped with stoves.

 

Now we come to freight stock with XP branding.  These were goods vehicles allowed to run in passenger trains, numbered in the goods numbering series.  Fitted with pneumatic buffers, screw couplings, tail lamp brackets and of course vacuum braked, and by my time with a minimum 10' wheelbase, and speed restricted to 45mph.  Interestingly, some guards' goods brake vans were XP branded but did not have vacuum brakes, only through vacuum pipes.  I cannot offhand remember any general merchandise goods wagons in revenue service by 1970 that were not XP branded.

 

No mineral, steel, oil, chemical or other wagons not in the general merchandise fleet were branded XP and did not, as a rule, run in passenger trains even if they were vac.braked and had the necessary equipment.  An exception was the attaching of PRESFLO pressurised cement hopper wagons to passenger trains on the Bala Jc.-Blaenau Festiniog (period spelling) branch due to heavy demand during the construction of the Treweryn Dam and Trawsfynydd power station in the early 60s; there were probably others.  These would have been authorised in the relevant local sectional appendix.

 

Then there were mixed trains, passenger trains which could carry any traffic, again unusual and authorised by the sectional appendices.  These were effectively normal passenger trains (which may or may not have carried NPCCS), with unfitted and mineral traffic marshalled behind, and a goods brake van with a guard riding in it at the rear.  Certain traffics were not allowed on them, including explosives, some chemicals, and highly imflammables.  I think there may have been a few of these left in the more remote parts of Scotland even in my time. 

 

But there was no blanket ban on four or six wheeled stock, or any NPCCS, or any XP branded vehicle, on passenger trains, at least up to 1978.  Such vehicles could not of course be attached to air-braked passenger trains, though, except as unfitted vehicles on mixed train.

[br2975]

As you'll have noticed, you will get any number of answers to your question.

.

However, the best place to start your research is either relevant WTTs (Working Time Tables) , CWN's (Carriage Working Notices) or Passenger Train Working notices for the stations of your interest.

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BR WR WTTs would show the restrictions on 4-wheeled stock by using symbols in the column relating to a specific train

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The symbols would usually be in the form of the 'spades' symbol, as shown on playing cards.

.

2 'spades' symbols = "Four wheeled vehicles must NOT be conveyed on this train" or

1 'spade' symbol = "Four-wheeled vehicles with wheelbase of 18 feet or less must NOT be conveyed on this train"

NB - see images below

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Most Class 1 passenger trains by the early 70s were barred from conveying four-wheeled stock.

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CWNs will show you what vehicles made up specific trains, and where those vehicles should be marshalled in that train; as well as their previous and next workings.

.

As for GUVs, they were common in BR (WR) passenger trains in my day, early 70s some examples were

1B16 08:10 Padd - Worcester.

1B25 08:30 Padd - PZ

1C76 15:15 Padd - Hfd.

1C97 18:00 Padd-Swansea

and how about.......

.

1C23 21:30 Padd-Cdff via Gloucester would be formed (from the front) 

Siphon G - detached Glos

Siphon G - detached Glos

GUV - Cardiff

Siphon G - Cardiff

SK - Cardiff

CK - Cardiff

BCK - Cardiff

SK - Cardiff

SK - Cardiff

BG - Cardiff

GUV - detached Swindon

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The Padd - Fishguard "Boat Trains" could, and did, carry two or three GUVS.

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I cannot recall CCTs, PMVs of  six-wheeled stock commonly running in regular passenger workings by the early 70s, albeit one should never say 'no' - I doubt it was a regularity.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by br2975

[Southernman46]

In the 1970's the first Weymouth - Bristol in the AM was loco-hauled (2V61) & conveyed a single CCT as 1st vehicle.

 

Specifically 31294 on 20/12/75 with single CCT and rake of 4 Mk1's

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I seem to recall when I was looking up formations for the York Shrewsbury parcels in the early 80s that I found some photos with CCTs. However it is entirely possible that the photos were of other trains, or were outside my time period. Although primarily a parcels service, the train also conveyed passengers.

[Rivercider]

24 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

In the 1970's the first Weymouth - Bristol in the AM was loco-hauled (2V61) & conveyed a single CCT as 1st vehicle.

 

Specifically 31294 on 20/12/75 with single CCT and rake of 4 Mk1's

That was still the case into the 1980s although by then the CCT had become a GUV.

 

At Westbury 31421 restarts the 16.10 Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth, the GUV was part of the booked formation

for the Bristol - Weymouth line, two workings in each direction being formed by this set of stock. 26/4/80

 

cheers

Edited November 20, 2023 by Rivercider
correction

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/11/2023 at 21:09, Wickham Green too said:

There was a ban on four- and six-wheeled stock in passenger trains from --/--/6- ................ hopefully someone can fill in the missing digits !

OOh, there's a challenge so here we go.  BTW note too BR2975's point - as far as some WTTs were concerned - about One Spade and Two Spade (as we called them train).  Oddly an addendum which i thought I'd posted yesterday seems to have got loset so I'll try again.

 

Addendum;  by the late 1960s (e.g 1967) most (if not all) WR Class1 trains were running under Two Spade conditions.  This also applied to certain loco hauled Class 2 trains particularly those where punctual running, e.g. commuter services, was required.

 

Note also that DMU tail load conditions, while observing the vehicle speed restrictions listed below, depended on other factors particularly engine power and on the WR it apears not to have been  the practice  - as far as I can trace - to use WTT 'Spade' symbols for them

 

N.B. The following information applies to coaching stock, i/.e. NPCCS vehicles and not necessarily to freight vehicles

 

As at 1 October 1972. (and dating from March 1971),  The following could be conveyed attached to passenger trains -

4 wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase exceeding 18ft , and six wheeled vehicles except milk tanks  - but limited to a max speed of 75mph.

4 wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of 18ft or less  (except for Pasfruit D vans) - but limited to max speed of 60mph

Pasfruit D vans - but limited to a max speed 45mph

Loaded 6 wheel milk tanks 60 mph

Empty 6 wheel milk tanks 50 mph

 

With effect from July 1975 the 75mph restriction for those with a wheelbase of over 18ft was reduced to 70mph.

From the same date the permission relating to PasFruit D vans was withdrawn

 

As far as I can trace the Instructions relating to 4 wheeled NPCCS vehicles conveyed by passenger trains were withdrawn in September 1985.  As at June 1983 the 70mph restrictions still applied to NPCCS 4 wheelers with a wheelbase exceeding 18ft

 and the 60mph restriction still applied to those with a wheelbase of 18ft ot less .  By then the maximum permitted speed of milk tanks, loaded or empty, had been reduceto 45mph

 

Going back in time as at October 1960 the standard XP Instruction applied to NPCCS vehicles with the only restriction being a maximum permitted speed of 60 mph if any vehicle with a wheelbase of less than 15ft was being conveyed.

 

With effect from 5 May 1969 particular limits on the maximum permitted speed of NPCCS vehicles were introduced, but the 75 mph restriction at that time applied to NPCCS six wheelers and to 4 wheelers with a wheelbase of 15ft or over.  

The restrictions for milk tanks were as noted above.

Vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 15 ft but more than 10ft were restricted to 60mph loaded,. 50mph empty

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by The Stationmaster
Addendum

[Southernman46]

11 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

In the 1970's the first Weymouth - Bristol in the AM was loco-hauled (2V61) & conveyed a single CCT as 1st vehicle.

 

Specifically 31294 on 20/12/75 with single CCT and rake of 4 Mk1's

and the BTM - Weymouth struggled to reach 75 mph - once qualified as one of GB's slowest services ISTR in a Railway Magazine survey

Edited November 20, 2023 by Southernman46

[SCR]

Hi 

Some more items of interest 

 

1B38 23.00 EX Cardiff to Bristol tm passinger.pos sorting vans and parcels which includes 4wheel vans

Like ex southern pmv and cct which contain fish traffic.

 

1B58. 21.20 Bristol to Plymouth passenger and parcel vans 

 

 

All ran up to mid and late 1970s

[Nearholmer]

I may be suffering false memory syndrome, but I’m sure that in the 70s I used to catch a train at c0200 Crewe to Shrewsbury, which had 4W vans in it, and that the tail van behind a Met Cam unit onwards towards Pwllheli (I used to change at Machynlleth) leaving Shrewsbury c0430 was also 4W.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I may be suffering false memory syndrome, but I’m sure that in the 70s I used to catch a train at c0200 Crewe to Shrewsbury, which had 4W vans in it, and that the tail van behind a Met Cam unit onwards towards Pwllheli (I used to change at Machynlleth) leaving Shrewsbury c0430 was also 4W.

The train is genuine enough, the York-Aberystwyth parcels (until at least 1975, but at some point before 1981 it was truncated at Shrewsbury. I was a few years behind you, first doing the journey in 1981. I don't remember tail traffic from Shrewsbury, and I suspect the parcels all went in the van of the Swindon 120 unit (probably).

[Stoke West]

1 hour ago, SCR said:

Hi 

Some more items of interest 

 

1B38 23.00 EX Cardiff to Bristol tm passinger.pos sorting vans and parcels which includes 4wheel vans

Like ex southern pmv and cct which contain fish traffic.

 

1B58. 21.20 Bristol to Plymouth passenger and parcel vans 

 

 

All ran up to mid and late 1970s

2120 Bristol to Plymouth was bogie stock the van behind the loco was the Worcester van (Kays traffic) off the 3B01 Worcester to Bristol parcels a lengthy train to Gloucester one van to Bristol often  2X25 on the front 

2125 to Salisbury then unadvertised to Eastleigh had CCT/PMV

[25kV]

And of course in the 1990s there were Motorail GUVs that could be found attached to WCML expresses (often behind the propelling loco).

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

... As far as I can trace the Instructions relating to 4 wheeled NPCCS vehicles conveyed by passenger trains were withdrawn in September 1985.  ...

Didn't expect to find any - but the 1986 ABC still lists 56 BR CCTs and six PMV/CCT of Southern origin ! ( and says they're limited to 70mph )

[TomJ]

Right until the late 80s the 1615 from Fort William to Mallaig was designated a ‘mixed train’ - with the most often seen wagons being fuel. So clearly no ‘ban’ on 4-wheeled stock running with passenger coaches there

[Nearholmer]

10 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The train is genuine enough, the York-Aberystwyth parcels (until at least 1975, but at some point before 1981 it was truncated at Shrewsbury. I was a few years behind you, first doing the journey in 1981. I don't remember tail traffic from Shrewsbury, and I suspect the parcels all went in the van of the Swindon 120 unit (probably).

The service must have withered in stages,  originally all the way to Aber, then terminating at Shrewsbury with one van going forward by passenger train, then just sacks in the guard’s compartment. On one occasion, the guard/driver made tea for all the passengers (me and about three others) and brought it to us during one of the long unloading stops, which was pretty good service!

[Trevellan]

GUVs in WR passenger services seemed to be fairly common in the early 1970s. I've dug out a couple of slides from my collection, both taken in 1974. The first shows Western Envoy departing from St Austell in June of that year, with what look like two NPCCS examples of LMS origin.

 

 

 

The second shot below was taken later in 1974, but I can't recall the location, other than being somewhere east of Totnes. The light was failing by that point, so it's not a great picture.

 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

and the BTM - Weymouth struggled to reach 75 mph - once qualified as one of GB's slowest services ISTR in a Railway Magazine survey

At one time in heh 1970s there was an LMS design BG running regularly in one of the Bristol - Weymouth sets

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The service must have withered in stages,  originally all the way to Aber, then terminating at Shrewsbury with one van going forward by passenger train, then just sacks in the guard’s compartment. On one occasion, the guard/driver made tea for all the passengers (me and about three others) and brought it to us during one of the long unloading stops, which was pretty good service!

Into the 1970s, the last  Llanelli to Shrewsbury train on the Central Wales line was referred to by railway staff and passengers as the 'North Mail' or 'York Mail'.

No tail traffic on this , but 4 wheel  vans were a regular facture of Milford- Swansea trains at the same period. If the Cross-Country unit was  running with an engine out, a 37 would tow the passenger stock and van.

[Steven B]

1978:

27011+27032* n by Steve Thorpe, on Flickr

 

May 1995 was when Motorail was stopped by BR:

(6089Gardener on Flickr)

 

 

If you want to ride on a train with a CCT, head to the North Norfolk Railway - they attach one to a train during the summer months when it's used to carry prams and pushchairs belonging to the youngest of their passengers.

 

 

Steven B