Quatering Alan Gibson wheels...again

[ikcdab]

Hi all, over the years i have been modelling, i have attempted scratch and kit built chassis on several occasions. In every case, these have ended in failure. Or, to coin a phrase, I have learnt many ways not to do it. I end up with wobbly wheels, loose crankpins, wobbly crankpins, locked-up chassis and crankpins that keep undoing themselves.

So, being a persistent chap, I am yet again attempting a kit built chassis. This time, I have chosen a simple uncompensated 0-4-0 in 16.5mm gauge on the basis that it can't get any easier.....but this is a small diesel shunter and has jackshafts - does that make it an 0-6-0? The actual kit shouldn't matter but it is a Judith Edge Ruston 165 DH

 

Anyway, i have read numerous threads on here about how to use AG wheels and i have read the advice on the AG website. Some stages are still not clear to me, hence this question.

 

I have a small unimat lathe and a good and comprehensive tool set and work bench. However, i do not have a chassis jig. No real reason,  but i think i should be able to do this without one...The answer can't just be "buy a jig".

 

My plan of attack is:

 

1. carefully chamfer the ends of the axles with a file and the axles held in the lathe.

2. using a countersink bit in my fingers, gently countersink the axles holes and crank pin holes on the back of the wheels.

3. screw the 12BA crankpin screws through the wheels. AG says that these will cut their own thread and be true. We will see! I will add a v small drop of CA as the screw goes home to lock it in.

4. mount a wheel in the three-jaw in the lathe, gripping by the rim. Hold the axle in the jacobs in the tailstock. Add a small smear of CA to the axle end and using the tailstock hand wheel, push the axle into the wheel. This should ensure it goes in square. Knowing the thickness of the wheels, i should be able to wind it in the right anount to get the axle end flush with the front of the wheel.

5, repeat for the other axle, so i have two wheels glued squarely onto two axles.

6. insert the undriven axle in the chassis and fix the wheel on the other end. I know that it doesn't have to be exactly 90 degrees, but aproximately so. I really don't want to get CA into the bearings, so my plan is to partially push the wheel on at around 90 degrees, add a bit of CA into the axle hole then push the wheel home. BUT how do i push this wheel on squarely? I do have a small hand-held tool vice that might help?

7. coupling rods reamed out to be a close running fit on the crankpin bushes.

8. Insert second axle, add coupling rods to the side which now has two wheels.

9. NOW the tricky bit...?  then somehow , in one operation, push (glue) on the final wheel square and true, get it quatered to match the other axle, add the remaining coupling rod, test the chassis, adjust the wheel if (when!) it doesn't run right, trying to avoid creating wobble, but all the time the glue is going off and i am not sure if the error is in the quatering or somewhere else.... test again and end up with a free-running chassis....

10. do something with the jackshafts and hope it doesn't screw it all up....

If anyone can tell me what the secret is in these final steps, please tell me....

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

[MPR]

Hi Ian

 

The comprehensive description set out above is a good one,  but if by CA you mean cyano-acrylate adhesive (super glue), I would not recommend this.

It’s much better to use Loctite threadlocker adhesive. This is an anaerobic adhesive which bonds well to steel, and ok to nylon. This cures very slowly - and crucially only where there is a good seal between surfaces. I find it easiest to squeeze a good drop onto a flat surface and then pick up a tiny drop on the end of a piece of wire. This is then applied within the bore of the wheel from the front. Once the first wheel is mounted on axle, wipe away any excess with a tissue and set the assembly aside to cure. Don’t leave any on the axle free surface as it won’t go off in the air and then will bind equally well to the axle box!

When you come to mount the other wheel, roughly quarter it and push the wheel half way home, then apply a drop of the Loctite on the axle end so that it wicks around the wheel edge. Push the wheel in all the way and again wipe off the excess. Check by eye that it is roughly quartered and tweak if necessary. Set the assembly on one side to cure.

The final, driven axle is then assembled the same way, with the gear wheel loose on the axle. Assemble the coupling rods and adjust the quartering until the loco runs freely - you will have plenty of time to do this. Finally, allow the whole thing to cure.

Regards 

Martin

 

[micklner]

No idea why you are gluing them ? Its not needed , much easier using a simple GW Models  quatering press.

 

Make a angle on the rear of each wheel, with a oversize drill  before placing in the press.

[ikcdab]

19 minutes ago, micklner said:

No idea why you are gluing them ? Its not needed , much easier using a simple GW Models  quatering press.

 

Make a angle on the rear of each wheel, with a oversize drill  before placing in the press.

I don't have a GW jig and I can't buy one in Asda like I can glue.

I have inferred from the AG notes on his catalogue that no glue or loctite is needed. A plain interference fit is good enough. Is that correct?

[fulton]

I have just recently fitted my first Alan Gibson wheels, converting the Dapol/Rails D1 to EM gauge, followed the AG instructions and used the GW Models, jig, (order by post with cheque, phone first to check price) only needed hand pressure, fitted securely first time, no glue, and quartered.

Edited November 23, 2023 by fulton
correction

[micklner]

11 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I don't have a GW jig and I can't buy one in Asda like I can glue.

I have inferred from the AG notes on his catalogue that no glue or loctite is needed. A plain interference fit is good enough. Is that correct?

No glue needed , you need a Postbox and a Stamp.

[MarkC]

5 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I have inferred from the AG notes on his catalogue that no glue or loctite is needed. A plain interference fit is good enough. Is that correct?

It is, yes. However, unlike Romfords, you can't guarantee the security of the wheels on the axles if you have to subsequently remove the wheels & refit them. That would be the time to break out the Loctite...

 

I tend to use a set of Romfords to check that all is square with the chassis, then remove them & fit the AG wheels. I do have a GW Models press, but have done without in the past, setting up 2 sets of wheels by eye & checking that all was OK by trying the wheels with the coupling rods on, before fitting the 3rd set if it was a 6-coupled loco. Obviously if it was an 8-coupled loco then I'd have the 3 sets proved OK before fitting the 4th...

 

Mark

 

 

[Izzy]

 

Having used plastic based loco wheels like Gibson/Sharman/Ultrascale for very many years in reasonably large numbers without any tools or glues I would suggest that all you need to do is dress/chamfer the axle ends as you describe and, perhaps, the very edge of the inside wheel bore - but only very carefully. Then insert the axle and twist clockwise as you do so, holding the wheel by hand. Usually I hold the axle in serrated snipe nose pliers. Attempting to use machine holding to do this operation can lead to issues if the wheel is not held absolutely square and true, which also applies to the axle. By twisting the axle as it is inserted it allows it to follow the wheel bore rather than distort it when all concentricity will be lost and not recoverable.

 

Trying to apply glue to the crankpin screw before attempting to get it to cut it's own thread won't work. The glue will be trying to stop the screw rotating and either it will get stuck half in or will simply tear the bore and be loose. Countersinking the rear of the bore and applying a little after it is fully in will help stop it rotating if it appears not totally secure and will be used for, say, walchaerts valve gear. 

 

Bob

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

As above, the GW Models quartering press, especially if you are planning on making more than a couple of locos. Soon repays the minor investment. Not much more than an etched wagon kit really or current RTR, ISTR they were £30 plus P&P in the last MRJ. And they do hold their value as I've seen them sell for much higher prices on eBay.

 

Jigs? I just use the basic Comet ones to get the chassis square and to put the spacers in the right place. These are the 00 ones. They do other gauges and also the adaptors if you are making sprung chassis. You could probably turn your own, but they are hardly going to break the bank at just over a fiver.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/tools/ls16/

 

 

Personally I just follow the instructions. If I can just about manage to get a basic chassis square then almost anyone can. I'll leave others to reinvent the wheel. Pun intended!

 

 

 

Jason

[ngtrains.com]

In the days when the Alan Gibson company was run by Alan Gibson Alan himself told me that superglue was a no no as it reacted with the plastic in a way that loosened the press fit and that nothing more than the press fit is needed.

[fulton]

10 hours ago, MarkC said:

It is, yes. However, unlike Romfords, you can't guarantee the security of the wheels on the axles if you have to subsequently remove the wheels & refit them. That would be the time to break out the Loctite...

 

 

While talking about removing wheels, I found this tool worked well, particularly original RTR wheels, just be careful, maybe add packing so you do not just pull off the tyre, ordered on line, came in six days, they do a range of tools. expensive? but quality product.

[MarkC]

1 minute ago, fulton said:

While talking about removing wheels, I found this tool worked well, particularly original RTR wheels, just be careful, maybe add packing so you do not just pull off the tyre, 

 

Wise words indeed 😎

 

Mark

[Nick Lawson]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Not much more than an etched wagon kit really or current RTR, ISTR they were £30 plus P&P in the last MRJ.

@ikcdab Certainly MUCH LESS than the secondhand one currently on ebay. And yes they are good.

 

14 hours ago, ikcdab said:

The answer can't just be "buy a jig"

Oh yes it can! (Sorry it's that time of year)

 

 

@Steamport Southport Can you confirm -  I don't have a recent MRJ - , but a 2022 edition gives George Watts' contact details as:

11 Croshaw Close

Lancing

West Sussex

BN15 9LE

 

Tel 01903 767231

 

@fulton GW also does a wheel puller, similar to the one you illustrated, but £12 (2022 price).

I tried to use a GW puller to rectify a wheel I had pushed on too far (before acquiring a quartering jig) but it is only stable in one plane and the wheel is now just slightly out of true. I keep hoping for a 3 - legged puller like a car hub-puller.

 

For anyone who hasn't enough toys - GW also does mini-rollers and a universal rivet punch tool

[Izzy]

G W Models address and phone number are the same in MRJ 299, as is the advert, which hasn't seemed to change much over the years.

 

Bob

[Steamport Southport]

33 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

@ikcdab Certainly MUCH LESS than the secondhand one currently on ebay. And yes they are good.

 

Oh yes it can! (Sorry it's that time of year)

 

 

@Steamport Southport Can you confirm -  I don't have a recent MRJ - , but a 2022 edition gives George Watts' contact details as:

11 Croshaw Close

Lancing

West Sussex

BN15 9LE

 

Tel 01903 767231

 

@fulton GW also does a wheel puller, similar to the one you illustrated, but £12 (2022 price).

I tried to use a GW puller to rectify a wheel I had pushed on too far (before acquiring a quartering jig) but it is only stable in one plane and the wheel is now just slightly out of true. I keep hoping for a 3 - legged puller like a car hub-puller.

 

For anyone who hasn't enough toys - GW also does mini-rollers and a universal rivet punch tool

 

My latest issue is 298 and those details are still the same. I think we are now on 299, just haven't picked it up yet. But off to town later so I'll see if it's still in stock in WHS (not Ealing).

 

 

 

Jason

[stewartingram]

Can I just add, for locking screw threads, nothing more difficult than varnish is adequate. When I started my apprenticeship (1964), we were doing just that, applyng varnish to screw threads to lock them. When Loctite (thread lock, not superglue) became available later, we did eventually switch to using that.

[fulton]

2 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

 

 

@fulton GW also does a wheel puller, similar to the one you illustrated, but £12 (2022 price).

I tried to use a GW puller to rectify a wheel I had pushed on too far (before acquiring a quartering jig) but it is only stable in one plane and the wheel is now just slightly out of true. I keep hoping for a 3 - legged puller like a car hub-puller.

Yes also have the GW puller, disadvantage the "legs" only fix over the tyre, all these pullers, to me, are not the easiest to use, maybe someone can come up with a better design. 

[Buhar]

I cut a slot in a penny washer to allow it to slide over the axle and sit fully behind the wheel.  The wheel puller pulls on the edge of the washer.  I think the washer is about an inch in diameter.  If the wheelbase is very close you'll need a washer close to the driver diameter.

 

Alan

[Barclay]

Not much to add from me - I don't use jigs but I'm not saying they wouldn't make life easier. I never really find a problem quartering, just tweak one wheel at a time and never go back, if it was right before you don't need to change it!

 

The fit of Gibson wheels varies from quite loose to very tight indeed, and I only use Loctite 603 if the wheels don't feel secure on the axles. I do what you say with the crankpins, adding a speck of superglue just before the pin is fully screwed home. I never use the bushes, running the coupling rod directly onto the crankpin itself. You hear stories of the bushes being slightly out of true, and I don't like putting such a big hole in the rod. Theoretically the steel thread will wear the rod but I have never seen this actually happen even after a decent mileage.

 

[ikcdab]

2 hours ago, Barclay said:

Not much to add from me - I don't use jigs but I'm not saying they wouldn't make life easier. I never really find a problem quartering, just tweak one wheel at a time and never go back, if it was right before you don't need to change it!

 

The fit of Gibson wheels varies from quite loose to very tight indeed, and I only use Loctite 603 if the wheels don't feel secure on the axles. I do what you say with the crankpins, adding a speck of superglue just before the pin is fully screwed home. I never use the bushes, running the coupling rod directly onto the crankpin itself. You hear stories of the bushes being slightly out of true, and I don't like putting such a big hole in the rod. Theoretically the steel thread will wear the rod but I have never seen this actually happen even after a decent mileage.

 

Hi there, thanks for that helpful reply.

I am only doing a simple 0-4-0 to try and get one success under the belt.

So far I have fixed the wheels on the unpowered axle. I found the wheels a very tight fit on the axles and I used a small machine vice to press them on.

I have added one wheel to the powered axle and inserted it through the drive gear.

I have fixed the coupling rod on one side and so I just have to press on the final wheel.

 

So.... It is just a case of aligning the wheel by eye, pressing it on, adding the rod then testing.  And if necessary, twisting the wheel round by trial and error until it runs smoothly?

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

I can only endorse all the advice given above.

 

If you want to secure the wheels on the axles, once (and only once) you have got the quartering completely and utterly satisfactory, could could try pinning the wheels to the axle. I drill a 0.5mm hole through the centre boss of the plastic wheel and into the steel of the axle, using as new a drill bit as I can. A small brass rod of corresponding size can then be glued into the hole and the top surface dressed carefully with a rotary tool or your tool of choice. I would probably only do this on wheels where any surface disturbance is masked by weathering and other gunge.

 

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

If you want to secure the wheels on the axles, once (and only once) you have got the quartering completely and utterly satisfactory, could could try pinning the wheels to the axle.

Thinking about it, even this shouldn't be necessary with Gibson wheels, which are often a lot tighter on the axle than Ultrascale ones, which I have had to pin on occasion.

 

[Barclay]

17 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi there, thanks for that helpful reply.

I am only doing a simple 0-4-0 to try and get one success under the belt.

So far I have fixed the wheels on the unpowered axle. I found the wheels a very tight fit on the axles and I used a small machine vice to press them on.

I have added one wheel to the powered axle and inserted it through the drive gear.

I have fixed the coupling rod on one side and so I just have to press on the final wheel.

 

So.... It is just a case of aligning the wheel by eye, pressing it on, adding the rod then testing.  And if necessary, twisting the wheel round by trial and error until it runs smoothly?

 

 

Basically, yes - set the crankpins on the finished side both pointing straight up, or whatever. Then on the other side fit the adjusting wheel so the crank position matches that on the other axle. I think the eye is really quite good at this. Test the chassis for free running, making sure there is a small amount of slop running clearance in the coupling rods, and if there is a problem give those crank positions a second very critical look. Normally if there's a problem you will see that your adjusting wheel is at a slightly different position, so grab each wheel between fingers and thumb of each hand and twist in the right direction. Because static friction is higher than sliding it will normally give all at once so there is a chance of overdoing the corrective movement, but you soon get a feel for how much force to apply.

 

If the wheels are looser and you are using a fixative such as Loctite then only fit the adjustment wheel half on so when you are happy you can put some of the stuff into the recess before carefully pushing the wheel home against a back to back gauge. The wheels will sometimes wobble but can be tweaked straight. Occasionally they are not fully round, or rather the tyre and axle hole are not completely concentric, which you can't fix without lathe work that is cleverer than me (Chris Pendleton did some articles for MRJ). Wheels that aren't round can be returned I am sure, though on my latest effort I have just put up with it. It's compensated so stays on the track, and it's a shunting engine so a slightly rolling gait isn't a big problem!

 

I should add that I quarter a chassis with the motor and gearbox in place. Surely that little motor is more sensitive to tight spots than my big mitts? You will hear this by a change in the note of the motor or a twitch of the needle in an ammeter. 

[97xx]

I'd be interested to see how true AG wheelsets run versus Romfords/Markits. I absolutely cannot stand wobble/nodding donkeys.

 

I have only tried AG drivers once on a large-overhang 2-4-2T but the wobble was 'down' to the standard of many current RTR models!

 

I rewheeled it with Markits and it's as true as one can expect.

 

At the risk of embarrassing myself, link below - it is a pretty rough fully scratchbuilt model I made in my teens in the 1970s, chassis two strips of 1/16" brass hand-drilled in my Dad's garage and so yes there is a little wobble but that may well be down to the chassis...

 

https://app.box.com/s/2uu04sei5qiuxwkjw90igdialirdqx8b

 

(Sorry it's on Box, but I do not have a YT account).