LNER Branch line typical carriages

[kairi]

Good Afternoon,

 

I'm currently working on modelling a small LNER branch line terminus set sometime in the 1930's.  I have space constraints which dictate the size of what I am able to model so I need to keep to short rakes, while I am not looking for complete accuracy I'd like to keep the rakes plausible at least.  I've been trying to find out what carriages the LNER would have used on a small branch line, the limit of the platform I have would allow for something similar in length to a GWR b-set, although I don't think the LNER had their own b-set's (feel free to correct me if they did).  Does anyone know what the LNER would have used on lower traffic branch lines that would be of similar size?

 

Thank you

 

 

[bécasse]

The LNER of the 1930s was very much the railway of its pre-grouping constituents but with a different livery and lettering. Which of the pre-grouping companies are you trying to represent? and presumably this is a rural branch line?

[Bucoops]

The GE section still ran a lot of 6 wheelers then, probably the odd 4 wheeler too.

[doilum]

Are you looking for rtr or serious kit/ s cratch building ? Scale? Available locomotives?

At the risk of being corrected the LNER didn't do the GWR type branch. There were however several light railways that came into their ownership. Easingwold, Cawood&Wistow, Nidd Valley to name but a few. Use rule one to pair up the most ancient examples you can find from one of the constituent companies. An old articulated pair might be a starter. Or a pair of ancient six wheelers?

The Derwent Valley line ran mixed trains including a pair of ancient four wheelers

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by doilum

[Dunalastair]

Not to forget the Sentinel (and Clayton) steam railcars, often used in the NER to replace BTPs on push-pull services.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

At the risk of being corrected the LNER didn't do the GWR type branch.

Eh??

 

If you mean that the LNER didn’t have rural branch line termini* then that’s simply not the case. Off the top of my head working south: Lossiemouth, Banff, Ballater, Mallaig, Eyemouth, Jedburgh, Rothbury, Alston, Allendale, Ponteland, Wearhead, Middleton-in-Teesdale, Waterhouses, Richmond, Masham, Withernsea, Hornsea, Fockerby, Barton on Humber, Horncastle, Spilsby, Upwelling, Stoke Ferry, Ramsey, Cromer, Eye, Laxfield, Aldeburgh, Snape, Framlingham, Hadleigh, Brightlingsea, Tollesbury, Mildenhall, Haverhill, Thaxted, Buntingford, Ongar - plus the light railways mentioned above (of which Cawood was worked as an LNER branch, the others staying independent).  But all, as was previously said, very much effectively in the style of their pre-grouping company whilst under the LNER. Ex-NER stock on the ex-NER branches etc.  
 

If you want some standardisation you could use Gresley non-corridor stock behind the appropriate pre-grouping loco in LNER livery.  Also ISTR that some North Eastern non-corridor carriages were transferred to some ex-GER and NBR lines (to replace four and six wheelers?)

 

Note: in real life there weren’t *that* many rural GWR branch termini either. Don’t be fooled by the number of model GWR BLTs!

 

RichardT

 

*Excluding bigger branch/more industrial termini such as Amble, Scarborough, Whitby, Blyth.

Edited November 24, 2023 by RichardT
Spelling

[Nearholmer]

Disused Stations is a good place to look, by scadding through pre-nationalisation photos of branches in your favoured area. I’m no LNER specialist, in fact I’m an ignoramus, but having done that for some GER ones, the answer seems to be: all sorts of old tat, and if the coaches didn’t match, so much the better. Some were chopped about to create “pay trains” too.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Nearholmer

[doilum]

4 hours ago, RichardT said:

Eh??

 

If you mean that the LNER didn’t have rural branch line termini* then that’s simply not the case. Off the top of my head working south: Lossiemouth, Banff, Ballater, Mallaig, Eyemouth, Jedburgh, Rothbury, Alston, Allendale, Ponteland, Wearhead, Middleton-in-Teesdale, Waterhouses, Richmond, Masham, Withernsea, Hornsea, Fockerby, Barton on Humber, Horncastle, Spilsby, Upwelling, Stoke Ferry, Ramsey, Cromer, Eye, Laxfield, Aldeburgh, Snape, Framlingham, Hadleigh, Brightlingsea, Tollesbury, Mildenhall, Haverhill, Thaxted, Buntingford, Ongar - plus the light railways mentioned above (of which Cawood was worked as an LNER branch, the others staying independent).  But all, as was previously said, very much effectively in the style of their pre-grouping company whilst under the LNER. Ex-NER stock on the ex-NER branches etc.  
 

If you want some standardisation you could use Gresley non-corridor stock behind the appropriate pre-grouping loco in LNER livery.  Also ISTR that some North Eastern non-corridor carriages were transferred to some ex-GER and NBR lines (to replace four and six wheelers?)

 

Note: in real life there weren’t *that* many rural GWR branch termini either. Don’t be fooled by the number of model GWR BLTs!

 

RichardT

 

*Excluding bigger branch/more industrial termini such as Amble, Scarborough, Whitby, Blyth.

 

4 hours ago, RichardT said:

Eh??

 

If you mean that the LNER didn’t have rural branch line termini* then that’s simply not the case. Off the top of my head working south: Lossiemouth, Banff, Ballater, Mallaig, Eyemouth, Jedburgh, Rothbury, Alston, Allendale, Ponteland, Wearhead, Middleton-in-Teesdale, Waterhouses, Richmond, Masham, Withernsea, Hornsea, Fockerby, Barton on Humber, Horncastle, Spilsby, Upwelling, Stoke Ferry, Ramsey, Cromer, Eye, Laxfield, Aldeburgh, Snape, Framlingham, Hadleigh, Brightlingsea, Tollesbury, Mildenhall, Haverhill, Thaxted, Buntingford, Ongar - plus the light railways mentioned above (of which Cawood was worked as an LNER branch, the others staying independent).  But all, as was previously said, very much effectively in the style of their pre-grouping company whilst under the LNER. Ex-NER stock on the ex-NER branches etc.  
 

If you want some standardisation you could use Gresley non-corridor stock behind the appropriate pre-grouping loco in LNER livery.  Also ISTR that some North Eastern non-corridor carriages were transferred to some ex-GER and NBR lines (to replace four and six wheelers?)

 

Note: in real life there weren’t *that* many rural GWR branch termini either. Don’t be fooled by the number of model GWR BLTs!

 

RichardT

 

*Excluding bigger branch/more industrial termini such as Amble, Scarborough, Whitby, Blyth.

I had deliberately omitted the seaside resorts as these were much larger than the terminus that the poster had in mind. Thanks for the others there are certainly plenty to investigate.

[Dunalastair]

Ramsey even had two unconnected termini for the price of one

GNR http://disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey_north/index.shtml

GER http://disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey_east/index.shtml 

 

What is a 'chopped about pay train'?

[Bri.dolan]

Not so much a  rural branch terminal but a small terminus with the goods yard facilities 

was Rotherham west gate station 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The obvious RTR coach is a Hornby Gresley 51ft compartmented 3rd brake. Any decent candidates from the generic RTR 6 wheelers?

For the rest it's scratch or kit building; or 'bashing' - the old Triang Hornby short clerestory coach is of good 'generic' pre-group appearance, chops up well, appears regularly on s/h tables...

 

[65179]

It's a bit of a rabbit hole to disappear down, but if you are really short of space, there are always the push-pull services such as used on, for example,  the Epping-Ongar service:

 

Robertcwp image on Flickr

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, Bri.dolan said:

Not so much a  rural branch terminal but a small terminus with the goods yard facilities 

was Rotherham west gate station 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

Rotherham Westgate railway station was opened by the  Sheffield and Rotherham Railway, taken over by the Midland Railway and incorporated into the LMS. As far as I know it was never part of the LNER.

[kairi]

Wow that's a lot more response than I expected, thank you, sorry for not responding sooner it's been a day for bad news.  Anyway, to try and answer some of the questions, yes I'm going for the rural branch line terminus idea almost certainly set in a fictional location somewhere in Yorkshire for the simple reason it's where I live so being able to visit heritage lines for a look around will hopefully bring idea's.  It's that reasoning that led to either LNER or LMS and since I know someone doing the LMS it only seemed right to bring in the competition.

 

To give an idea of just how small everything will be my baseboard is is one from scale model scenery and is just 1100mm x 225mm which just fits nicely on the shelf I have, I plan to add a small fiddle yard that detaches so the entire main board can be scenic.  I've gone to n-gauge so I can get more in but it still leaves me tight on space, I might start a thread on the building as I've been very much enjoying it so far as that's going off topic.

 

Since I'm doing N I'm expecting to either have to wait until a release or try building from a kit unless I make a lucky find somewhere, since I'm a novice at this knowing what to look for is half the battle as there seems to be less resources on the LNER than such at the GWR which seemed to have a book on every shelf at the last show I visited.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by kairi

[Bri.dolan]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

Rotherham Westgate railway station was opened by the  Sheffield and Rotherham Railway, taken over by the Midland Railway and incorporated into the LMS. As far as I know it was never part of the LNER.

Thanks for correcting me.i really should have made sure before posting 

for some reason I thought it was an LNER station  but you are correct 

OP please ignore my suggestion 

 

Regards 

 

Brian 

[Steve O.]

Hi, there was some 'light' passenger traffic on heavy industrial lines too - like the services to / from Consett whether by Beamish or Derwent Valley.

Some listings here (though a 10-year-old page so some links are duff) https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9233&start=15

 

I know they're 'generic' but I couldn't resist buying a set of the Hornby LNER 6-wheelers from Olivia's trains. I missed the Hattons GERs / didn't fancy a repaint / fettle.

Went for... R40081 1st Teak, R40082 3rd, R40082A 3rd, R40083, Brake 3rd, R40084 4-Wheel Brake Baggage Coach...to run behind an 'as-newbuild' G5 bought earlier https://www.themodelcentre.com/35-251z  (rule #1 applies...)

 

Birtley Modellers had a wonderful 'what-if' of an NER terminus "Ravensworth Junction" back in the day...

Edited November 26, 2023 by Steve O.

[billbedford]

12 hours ago, kairi said:

Wow that's a lot more response than I expected, thank you, sorry for not responding sooner it's been a day for bad news.  Anyway, to try and answer some of the questions, yes I'm going for the rural branch line terminus idea almost certainly set in a fictional location somewhere in Yorkshire for the simple reason it's where I live so being able to visit heritage lines for a look around will hopefully bring idea's

 

It depends on where exactly in Yorkshire you are thinking about. The ex-NER lines didn't get new standard stock until the mid to late 30s and the ex-GNR section had to wait even longer. 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 hours ago, kairi said:

I'm doing N I'm expecting to either have to wait until a release or try building from a kit unless I make a lucky find somewhere, since I'm a novice at this knowing what to look for is half the battle as there seems to be less resources on the LNER than such at the GWR which seemed to have a book on every shelf at the last show I visited.

You will be building from kits or scratch, there is very little in N for 1930s branchline LNER. Suitable book titles aplenty, but you won't see that many s/h. Have fun!

[Izzy]

This might be a useful site to visit: https://steve-banks.org/    Lots of info on LNER coaches, the prototype section in particular, although mainly dealing with later days and into BR times. I've just built a set of Thompson non-corridors in 2mm from Worsley Works etches and 2mm association parts. See here for a bit more info: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/147403-priory-road-north-east-essex-in-br-days/page/15/#comment-5348791  If your modelling in N then kit or scratch is the only way you will be able to obtain anything other than LNER mainline stock such as the Dapol Greselys for the 1930's I would suggest.

 

Bob

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

The LNER is well suppported for mainline coaches in N RTR — the Bachmann Thompsons are superb — but there is no non corridor or pre-grouping stock available RTR in N.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 25/11/2023 at 07:01, Dunalastair said:

Ramsey even had two unconnected termini for the price of one

GNR http://disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey_north/index.shtml

GER http://disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey_east/index.shtml 

 

 

Rather like Buxton on the LMS (initially MR & LNWR stations)

[doilum]

Your space would almost equate to 12'x2' in 7mm. There are plenty of O gauge layouts in this space. I certainly did one. One left field idea is to model the station at the Beamish museum. The name of it's original location escapes me.

[Steve O.]

26 minutes ago, doilum said:

Your space would almost equate to 12'x2' in 7mm. There are plenty of O gauge layouts in this space. I certainly did one. One left field idea is to model the station at the Beamish museum. The name of it's original location escapes me.

Rowley (formerly Cold Rowley).

[Forward!]

On 24/11/2023 at 15:40, kairi said:

Good Afternoon,

 

I'm currently working on modelling a small LNER branch line terminus set sometime in the 1930's.  I have space constraints which dictate the size of what I am able to model so I need to keep to short rakes, while I am not looking for complete accuracy I'd like to keep the rakes plausible at least.  I've been trying to find out what carriages the LNER would have used on a small branch line, the limit of the platform I have would allow for something similar in length to a GWR b-set, although I don't think the LNER had their own b-set's (feel free to correct me if they did).  Does anyone know what the LNER would have used on lower traffic branch lines that would be of similar size?

 

Thank you

 

 

 

As others have said, to model a specific part of the country situated on the LNER system in the 1930s requires the ability to represent the relevant pre-grouping company's motive power and rolling stock, much of which persisted throughout the LNER's existence. And in N gauge there are no suitable ready-to-run locomotives or carriages available for either ex-NER or ex-GNR. In 4mm scale, there are a number of suitable locomotives now available ready to run (who'd have thought that, even 20 years ago?!), but still no matching (accurate) ready-to-run NER or GNR carriage stock.

 

The reason the LNER was like this is twofold- firstly it is a product of how its pre-grouping consitutents were brought together and how that process dictated that the company was organized into a complicated set of areas and divisions that reflected its pre-grouping inheritance. https://www.lner.info/article/history/bigfour.php 

 

And secondly, its a product of the LNER's very troubled early financial situation. It was principally a freight railway- so the General Strike of 1926 and the Great Depression of 1929-33 massively dented the company's finances for much of its existence. It didn't help that it could never get over the fact it was a conglomeration of pre-grouping companies- the anticipated cost savings anticipated by bringing them all together never really materialised- it only closed around 18 percent of its unprofitable or duplicated branchlines during its entire existence. The LNER, in my view, was constantly fixated on trying to maximise profit by cutting spending rather than trying to grow new traffic. What money it did attract for big capital projects usually came from government backed loan schemes.

 

Initially, rolling stock renewal investment was actually quite high- the 1923 Rolling Stock Renewal Programme put out 700 new carriages in 1924. But as the economic difficulty went on the renewal of rolling stock ended up a long way down the pecking order because the LNER only very rarely drew money from their capital account to fund rolling stock renewal- it was taken from the Revenue account. It would not be an investment priority in a part of their business where revenue was declining.

 

All of this meant there simply wasn't the cash for widespread stock renewal with new 'standard' designs in quite the same way other 'Big Four' companies managed to achieve it. A good example is that in 1935 the LNER still had 600 carriages lit by gas, and was getting it in the neck from the government to get up to scratch by converting these ancient carriages to electric. The LNER calaculated they'd convert all carriages that they thought had useful life left ahead of them- and then set the bar at up to 35 YEARS old! That gives you some indication of the backlog the LNER had by this point.

 

And even when there were attempts at renewals, it still didn't necessarily result in a complete standardisation of design. Gresley was often forced to introduce several different diagrams to meet the specific needs of each Section- who all ran their traffic differently to each other. A good example being the "short" 52'6'' carriages designed for the Great Eastern Section and being required, I think I remember correctly, because of the specific positioning of a set of train protection equipment in Liverpool Street Station.

 

To give you an idea of how slowly modernisation of LNER carriage stock took place, there's plenty of photographic evidence of trains running in the 1940s and 50s comprised of pre-grouping stock (and being pulled by a pre-grouping locomotive).

 

The plus side for the modeller of course is it allows great variety for those of us who enjoy making kits! 

 

Will

Edited November 27, 2023 by Forward!