Class 81-85 1965 proposed names

[Evertrainz]

https://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/index.php/81-87-fleet-data-introduction/class-81-85-data-table

 

On the ACLG, it lists that the roarers were planned to be given some names, all aptly starting with letter E.

 

I was wondering if anyone knew more about this? This is the first and only mention I’ve seen of it.

 

And just to let creativity take over for a bit, would anyone guess what these nameplates would have looked like?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I've never heard of it, and it seems an odd choice with just the first two or three of each class getting names (apart from the AL5s, which had a set of three and a later pair - there wasn't anything special about E3077 - E3095, was there?

 

For "nameplates", how about individual cast aluminium letters? But a bigger question to me is where would you put a name? There were numbers at both ends and the rather classy cast aluminium emblem at mid-height in the middle, with no obvious place for the name either above or below. You couldn't really move the emblem up (to fit the name below), because some locos had grilles in the middle of the side. Unlike most diesels with their large full-height radiator grilles/shutters at one end, the AC electric locos had more or less symmetrical sides, so an off-centre name might look rather odd.

 

As for what other names they could have chosen, I'm a bit surprised they didn't pick Emel Empstead.

[25kV]

It's so long ago I don't remember the source of this information, though I have a feeling it was some very old official document (proposal at least).  When we (ACLG) first heard about it there was some discussion about adding the "Enchantress" name to E3003 (81002), but as above, where and how would one fit it?

I suggested that the most likely nameplate style would be something akin to the Westerns, being roughly concurrent with the proposal, and mocked up this plate:

 

It's possible someone else will have a better recall than I as to the source.

 

[25kV]

Just had a look through old copies of ACLines, and it reported that the group had been contacted by a chap from First Procurement who forwarded the list.  This was in 2001, and unfortunately I don't recall any more than that.  How can it be 22 years ago?  Jeeez!

[Steamport Southport]

I always thought they were supposed to have got the names from the Class 40s as that was the job they were talking over. But ISTR BR stopped naming engines about that time so they were never transferred.

 

 

 

Jason

[Evertrainz]

3 hours ago, 25kV said:

It's so long ago I don't remember the source of this information, though I have a feeling it was some very old official document (proposal at least).  When we (ACLG) first heard about it there was some discussion about adding the "Enchantress" name to E3003 (81002), but as above, where and how would one fit it?

I suggested that the most likely nameplate style would be something akin to the Westerns, being roughly concurrent with the proposal, and mocked up this plate:

 

It's possible someone else will have a better recall than I as to the source.

 

 

Yes if I give this idea a try in my 3D software, this is how I’d want to do the plates. Also helps to conceptualize what “aesthetic” BR wanted here – when you consider that some Westerns had the BR cast emblem.

 

In terms of fitting it on the loco, I would probably move the cast emblem up and add the nameplate an inch or two below. Not the most eye-level option, but it’s the only way I’d see this method working (also also rationalizes why they never followed through with it;!)

 

EDIT: I gave the above a shot in a simple image editor, I don’t particularly hate it..

 

 

Above emblem:

 

 

Original photo is by Ben Brooksbank used under CC license (from the Class 82 wikipidia page).

Edited November 26, 2023 by Evertrainz

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've never heard of this proposal. But why not? There are easily enough suitable words beginning with "E" that would be suitable for the first 100 AC electrics.

Not sure about nameplate style though. The fabricated "Western" style plates were very much a WR thing; they also appeared on the WR-named Brush 4s. Though as noted above, D1000 had a cast emblem like the electrics.

 

[25kV]

9 hours ago, Evertrainz said:

In terms of fitting it on the loco, I would probably move the cast emblem up and add the nameplate an inch or two below. Not the most eye-level option, but it’s the only way I’d see this method working (also also rationalizes why they never followed through with it;!)

 

Another option would be to move the cast emblem to the right-hand cabside, under the E-number, and have the plate more traditionally placed on the central bodyside.  This may have been the method had the scheme come to fruition, but I'd have been reluctant to suggest making that modification to E3003's restored appearance in preservation - without the precedent of operating like that, it would probably have just looked "wrong".

 

8 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Not sure about nameplate style though. The fabricated "Western" style plates were very much a WR thing; they also appeared on the WR-named Brush 4s. Though as noted above, D1000 had a cast emblem like the electrics.

 

I had the same thought at the time, but since nothing else on the LMR was named during the period, I rationalised that BR might just centralise nameplate production where it was actively going on, thuskeeping costs down, using a standard flexible fabrication technique etc. 

(Do I recall correctly that Swindon later produced all of BR's 1970s/1980s standard plates until the works closed and Newton Replicas / similar came along?)

[Nearholmer]

I think I’d put the nameplates and the cast symbols centred one third, one third, one third, between the cab doors.

 

Economy

Efficiency

Expediency

Egalitarianism

 

All good reasons for not naming some of these.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Yep, I think the foundry at Swindon cast the late 70s nameplates when BR reversed its decision on not naming locos. You may be right in BR adapting the "Western-style" of nameplates, as not much else (bar a few Peaks and one or two Deltics) were being named then.

 We could've had names like Eloquent, Ebullient, Eminence, Endurance, Effervescent, Encourage, Ecstasy, Ellipse, Elegant, Endeavour, Morse, Lewis...

[Legend]

Electrocution? 

[Nearholmer]

Or, follow the LNWR tradition of giving locos names that were more or less completely baffling/disconnected:

 

Emetic

Embolism

Earthworm

Earwig

Ectoplasm

Eastern Potentate

Eric the Red

Endymion

Elf

Elderberry

Engineer

Ell (another LNWR thing: names that are easy to confuse with one another)

Egremont

Ecstatic

Echidna

Easter

Employee

Ecstatic

Epicycloid

Embarrassment 

Erection

Embargo

Effective

Ethereal

Effervescent

Elizabeth of Glamis

Eagle

Experiment

Edward VII

Edward The Blue Engine

Ebor Gorge

Eclectic

Edamame

Educator

Eel

Eiger

Earl of Northumberland

Errigal

Everest

Eleanor of Aquitaine

Estimate

Ellipse

Expropriate

Entropy

Echo

Echo

Echo

Etcetera

 

 

(Spot the real LNWR names)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Maybe position the number, nameplate and crest like this (as per the Westerns):

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, 25kV said:

Another option would be to move the cast emblem to the right-hand cabside, under the E-number, and have the plate more traditionally placed on the central bodyside.  This may have been the method had the scheme come to fruition, but I'd have been reluctant to suggest making that modification to E3003's restored appearance in preservation - without the precedent of operating like that, it would probably have just looked "wrong".

 

I had the same thought at the time, but since nothing else on the LMR was named during the period, I rationalised that BR might just centralise nameplate production where it was actively going on, thuskeeping costs down, using a standard flexible fabrication technique etc. 

(Do I recall correctly that Swindon later produced all of BR's 1970s/1980s standard plates until the works closed and Newton Replicas / similar came along?)

 

The last of the Class 40s named only got their names a year or so before. Could they have used that style?

 

I'm thinking more the lettering style than having any emblems or crests. 

 

David Moyle from Wiki

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Or, follow the LNWR tradition of giving locos names that were more or less completely baffling/disconnected:

 

Emetic

Embolism

Earthworm

Earwig

Ectoplasm

Eastern Potentate

Eric the Red

Endymion

Elf

Elderberry

Engineer

Ell (another LNWR thing: names that are easy to confuse with one another)

Egremont

Ecstatic

Echidna

Easter

Employee

Ecstatic

Epicycloid

Embarrassment 

Erection

Embargo

Effective

Ethereal

Effervescent

Elizabeth of Glamis

Eagle

Experiment

Edward VII

Edward The Blue Engine

Ebor Gorge

Eclectic

Edamame

Educator

Eel

Eiger

Earl of Northumberland

Errigal

Everest

Eleanor of Aquitaine

Estimate

Ellipse

Expropriate

Entropy

Echo

Echo

Echo

Etcetera

 

 

(Spot the real LNWR names)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to come up with some loco numbers, in the LNWR tradition of being totally random, because they almost invariably picked the lowest number available in the store.

 

Love the 3 Echo's . 😇

 

Top marks for that!

[Evertrainz]

I feel that moving the emblem to below cab window , with or without keeping the number plate, would have been tough considering the sandbox filler inlets.

[BernardTPM]

Rail Alphabet arrived in January 1965*, so it is just possible they may have been like the later plates.

 

*Well actually in various January 1965 magazines, so technically late December 1964.

Edited November 26, 2023 by BernardTPM

[Evertrainz]

I also had a go at coming up with E- names for the 10-strong fleet of unreliably Class 84s :)

 

Encumbrance

Ephemeral

Entanglement

Exasperation

Execration

Exclusion

Enervation

Estrangement

Excommunication 

Exile

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Evertrainz

[slilley]

I am quite suprised by this and would like to see the original documentation.

 

What makes me sceptical about it is that the BR Board as a matter of policy decided on 8 October 1964 that there would be no more locomotives once existing commitments had been fulfilled. This meant that the regimental Peaks that were scheduled to be named would get their names, and also the seventeen Brush Type 4s on the Western Region would also get names as they had been decided upon by the Western Region Board. Naming in those days was the responsibility of the regional boards at the time. I have read a number of years of the LMR board minutes and nothing has been mentioned regarding naming the AC electrics. 1965 is late in the day to be suggesting new names given that the BRB had stopped new names being used.

 

An adhoc British Transport Commission committee had discussed names for "modern" traction back in 1957. They considered the forthcoming AC electrics and decided they would not suggest names as that would need a policy decision by the Commission that they were to be named.

 

Simon

[25kV]

I suspect the idea would have been mooted earlier than 1964, as by then construction of the AL6s would have been on the cards, making the AL1-AL5 locos much less high profile. 

[slilley]

19 hours ago, 25kV said:

I suspect the idea would have been mooted earlier than 1964, as by then construction of the AL6s would have been on the cards, making the AL1-AL5 locos much less high profile. 

 That is quite possible, but having read through the minutes of the LMR Board for that time when such a subject would have been discussed, naming was a devolved power at that time, I have not seen anything. Thats is not to say it was not considered, I would like to see the documents where these names are listed so we have some sort of lead on who was proposing what.

 

Simon 

[Mol_PMB]

Let’s not forget that there really were named electric locos operating into Manchester Piccadilly in the early 1960s. Some were painted electric blue and one of the names started with E. 
 

[25kV]

12 hours ago, slilley said:

 That is quite possible, but having read through the minutes of the LMR Board for that time when such a subject would have been discussed, naming was a devolved power at that time, I have not seen anything. Thats is not to say it was not considered, I would like to see the documents where these names are listed so we have some sort of lead on who was proposing what.

Me too!  As I say, it was back in 2001 or so when we were sent the information.  I have a feeling there was a document with the list on it, but I don't recall details.  I've not been involved with the ins and outs of the group since 2010, but if I do come across anything more, I'll post it here.  We reported it at the time as an intriguing proposal, but I don't know how far it got.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Do the names seem odd to others like they do to me?

 

Eros? Well, there aren't many Greek Gods beginning with E, and I suppose that Erebus, the god of darkness, is hardly associated with electicity (except for believers in the dark sucker theory). Of course, the EM2 naming committee bagged Electra, not a god, but a very good name. With Enchantress and Escort, I can't help thinking that someone was getting rather distracted.

 

Elector. Presumably the Electors of Hanover, Kings George I, II and III, rather than someone who voted for Harold Wilson in 1964. The title Elector of Hanover was formally abolished in 1806, along with the vestiges of the Holy Roman Empire. Hardly the white heat of technology.

 

Eleanor. The only given name in the list, but I can't think of a contemporary Eleanor (surely it isn't Eleanor Roosevelt, and it's too early for Eleanor Rigby in case that crossed anyone's mind). Instead, Eleanor in a British context often refers to Eleanor of Aquitaine (1122-1204), the queen of Henry II and mother of Richard I and King John, or Eleanor of Castille (1241-1290) the queen of Edward I and the person in whose honour the Eleanor Crosses were erected, the most famous being Charing Cross (Banbury Cross is a Victorian fake). Well, it's nice to have a sense of history, I suppose, but why name your bright and shiny new 100 mph 25 kV electric locomotive after medieval royalty?

 

Elgin and Ellesmere. Towns not noted for their electric railways (and Ellesmere had just lost its railway altogether). Perhaps named after the Earls of Elgin (he of Greek marbles fame) and Ellesmere (famous for nothing really, except getting rich from the Bridgwater Canal, which the first earl inherited rather than had built himself). Why not Eccles or Earlestown, which are both closer to the wires? Oh, they didn't have Earls. But I'd rather have an Eccles cake than an Elgin marble any day.

[rodent279]

If I were going to name my shiny new fleet of cutting edge AC electric locos, I'd be honouring pioneers of electrical engineering. Faraday, Ohm, Wheatstone, Volta, Ampere, Coulomb etc.

Ok there aren't 100 of them, but you could extend fairly easily into the field of science and engineering to fill up the lines in the book.

Edited November 28, 2023 by rodent279