sulzer71 Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Good Afternoon All This may be a dumb question but I'm not that clued up on certain aspects of electronics so probably best to ask I currently have my layout stripped apart for a total rebuild and would like to change the way I redo certain aspects of it upon rebuild , one is the way I will operate my Tortoise Point Motors I have been using the DCC Concepts Cobalt Alpha Central and an AD-8fx Accessory Decoder Board however this seems a waste when I'll only be running 6 sets of points maximum What I want to do is move to toggle switches mounted in the fascia , however , this is the switch I'd like to use but not sure if it is suitable https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005514996138.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.d92b38daOAN7qX&mp=1 From looking online I see that it's easy to do using a DPDT type switch but not sure if the above switch is that type , I'm keen to use this one due to it being Bi-Colour Red/Green LED From what I can tell this comes with a fly lead containing 6 wires and I see that DPDT usually have 6 connection points If this switch is suitable and you have the knowledge of how to wire it could you possibly post or send me a wiring diagram TIA Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted December 11, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2023 You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached). tortoise.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 10 minutes ago, RFS said: You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached). tortoise.pdf 208.55 kB · 2 downloads Thanks ,Yes , this is what I have seen but don't want this type of switch hence asking this question here about the type of switch I posted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Am I right in thinking that you are on DCC? If so, accessory decoders are a useful thing and avoid having separate power supplies. I have Tortoise paired with Wabbits. These can be used by selecting the address from the throttle. However, I think this is tedious and opted for the momentary push button feature. Every time the button is pressed the turnout changes. Buttons are mounted in the fascia close to the turnouts. They are also fitted to the front and rear. My only regret is making them proud of the fascia because my stomach has a tendency to change points when I'm reaching over. One of these days I will sort that. I only discovered the SMAIL the other day which is a Tortoise with decoder included: http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6200ins.pdf HTH John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, brossard said: Am I right in thinking that you are on DCC? If so, accessory decoders are a useful thing and avoid having separate power supplies. I have Tortoise paired with Wabbits. These can be used by selecting the address from the throttle. However, I think this is tedious and opted for the momentary push button feature. Every time the button is pressed the turnout changes. Buttons are mounted in the fascia close to the turnouts. They are also fitted to the front and rear. My only regret is making them proud of the fascia because my stomach has a tendency to change points when I'm reaching over. One of these days I will sort that. I only discovered the SMAIL the other day which is a Tortoise with decoder included: http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6200ins.pdf HTH John Hi John Yes , I am on DCC and have been using the DCC Concepts items mentioned in my opening post but I want to change as I am only utilising half the outputs of them and fancy having a simple switch for each motor on the fascia Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jeremy Cumberland Posted December 11, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2023 The switch you are looking at is an SPDT (single pole double throw). The reason it has six leads is to allow it to be configured with red and green either way round. If you are particularly keen on using this switch, it could be done, but you'll need to use it to drive a DPDT relay which in turn drives the Tortoise. Personally, I'd use an ordinary DPDT 2-posiiton (on-on) toggle switch and then have separate LEDs to indicate direction, which you can mount wherever you want on your control panel. There are a wide variety of LED options. You can have separate LEDs for each direction, in different colours if you like, or you can get bi-colour LEDs which change colour according to polarity (use a 2-pin type). 5 minutes ago, RFS said: You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached). tortoise.pdf 208.55 kB · 0 downloads Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 I have just 5 turnouts and a double slip on my layout. If you mean the switch outputs, it is normal to use just half of them for switching crossing (frog) polarity. The other switch can be used for aspect signals. It sounds like you are going down the manual 12VDC route for turnout control. I can't help there. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 45 minutes ago, brossard said: I have just 5 turnouts and a double slip on my layout. If you mean the switch outputs, it is normal to use just half of them for switching crossing (frog) polarity. The other switch can be used for aspect signals. It sounds like you are going down the manual 12VDC route for turnout control. I can't help there. John Yes I would like to just go 12v DC for the control , I don't worry about controlling the frog polarity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 49 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said: The switch you are looking at is an SPDT (single pole double throw). The reason it has six leads is to allow it to be configured with red and green either way round. If you are particularly keen on using this switch, it could be done, but you'll need to use it to drive a DPDT relay which in turn drives the Tortoise. Personally, I'd use an ordinary DPDT 2-posiiton (on-on) toggle switch and then have separate LEDs to indicate direction, which you can mount wherever you want on your control panel. There are a wide variety of LED options. You can have separate LEDs for each direction, in different colours if you like, or you can get bi-colour LEDs which change colour according to polarity (use a 2-pin type). Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself. Thanks Jeremy , I am keen on using this type of switch and don't want to have to mess around with a layout panel and LED's etc as that's effectively just remaking what the DCC Concepts panel does , there's similar sort of switches available but I have emailed the supplier of the switch I like to see if they offer other variants as I now understand that for a DPDT switch I need 2NO 2NC type Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said: ...... Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself. Because Circuitron understand what their product does. The motor limits the current flowing to around 15mA at "stall", which is within the maximum current of typical 3mm or 5mm LEDs (20mA or 25mA is common). With the motor limiting the current flow, the LED will just work. No extra resistors ! ( Though if two motors are in parallel, then their combined resistance is halved, the stall current is now 30mA and the LEDs placed over the common feed to the motors will be over-current and may blow But, if put in the wires after they split to each motor, the LEDs will still be fine..). That then brings us back to switches. Yes, DPDT work, but with the appropriate power supply, one can reduce the layout wiring substantially and use a SPDT switch. With a DPDT switch there are two wires from switch to each motor. With a SPDT switch there is one wire to each motor, and one common wire from all motors back to the power supply. But, the SPDT option requires a slightly more complex power supply; the simpler being an AC source and two diodes for half-wave rectified output, the more complex being two DC supplies "stacked" (positive of Power-supply-1 connected to negative of Power-supply-2) so they provide -9volts, 0volts and +9volts (or -12, 0, +12 if wanting faster moving motors). Both are shown in the Tortoise manuals. - Nigel 1 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 2 hours ago, sulzer71 said: Thanks Jeremy , I am keen on using this type of switch and don't want to have to mess around with a layout panel and LED's etc as that's effectively just remaking what the DCC Concepts panel does , there's similar sort of switches available but I have emailed the supplier of the switch I like to see if they offer other variants as I now understand that for a DPDT switch I need 2NO 2NC type Dave The switch you showed can be easily wired for one-colour illumination. But doing it for both colours on the switch is complicated. ( Using the SPDT switch wiring options in the Tortoise manual). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail. MTB MP10 point motor 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bandmbill Posted December 11, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2023 28 minutes ago, WIMorrison said: Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail. MTB MP10 point motor Same footprint but has a depth of 20mm as opposed to 83mm…….. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bandmbill said: Same footprint but has a depth of 20mm as opposed to 83mm…….. Yep, and we proved at McKinley that they are a straight swap for the Tortoise, no need to change anything, just cut the Tortoise wiring, screw onto baseboard, connect the wiring into the MP10 plug and off you go 😂 EDIT - I should have also mentioned that MTB will be manufacturing a new version that will have an in-built decoder for DCC users soon. I have seen the pre-prod models and they are extremely tempting and so much better than other slow action motors with in-built decoders 😉 Edited December 11, 2023 by WIMorrison 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted December 12, 2023 Author Share Posted December 12, 2023 15 hours ago, WIMorrison said: Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail. MTB MP10 point motor I have a good stock of Tortoise motors as is so don't need to spend more money on new motors , thanks anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 In your position I would watch this and modify all your motors before installing them 71. Tortoise Point Motor Failures at McKinley Railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bandmbill Posted December 12, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2023 16 hours ago, WIMorrison said: Yep, and we proved at McKinley that they are a straight swap for the Tortoise, no need to change anything, just cut the Tortoise wiring, screw onto baseboard, connect the wiring into the MP10 plug and off you go 😂 EDIT - I should have also mentioned that MTB will be manufacturing a new version that will have an in-built decoder for DCC users soon. I have seen the pre-prod models and they are extremely tempting and so much better than other slow action motors with in-built decoders 😉 Have they announced the price of the DCC version yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 Not yet Bill, but expected to be below the other motor with the inbuilt decoder ;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I had a look at the switches & if I understand correctly then these circuits should work. If I understand correctly then there are internal resistors for the LEDs the circuit shows the frog wiring which can be deleted if required. The LEDs are controlled by the switch in the Tortise Circuit on the left requires a DC12V & a AC12V power supply. The circuit on the right requires a more complex +12v,0V,-12V power supply. I believe DCC Concepts make a +12v,0V,-12V power supply. If the LEDs are out of sync with the point, then change the green & orange wires at the tortise If the frog polarity is out of sync with the point, then change the Red & Grey wires at the tortise Hope this helps. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerzilla Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 As Charlie points (sorry!) out in the video linked above, DCC control of points is all very well until you run a train into a trailing point that has been set incorrectly. Then the loco shorts out the track and the layout stops. With separate switching you can move the point to clear the short and restart the train (s). With DCC you have to push the loco back by hand. Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view, snd on how likely you are to set the road accurately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, rogerzilla said: As Charlie points (sorry!) out in the video linked above, DCC control of points is all very well until you run a train into a trailing point that has been set incorrectly. Then the loco shorts out the track and the layout stops. With separate switching you can move the point to clear the short and restart the train (s). With DCC you have to push the loco back by hand. Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view, snd on how likely you are to set the road accurately. Easily solved and thus not something which stops a layout: Solution A - drive properly and drive to the signals. Then you never run into incorrectly set turnouts. Solution B - try to drive properly, and when it fails, you can move things manually. Solution C - separate the track bus from the accessory bus, and fit independent cut-outs to the track bus. This is usually recommended for all but the smallest/simplest of layouts, and means that a fault on the track bus (track short circuit) does NOT stop the accessory bus (turnout motor controls) from working. Separating layouts into zones with their own cut-outs means that a fault in one zone of track does not shut down the rest of a larger layout. Thus, someone could be ignoring signals in one place and causing short circuits, but the rest of the layout carries on working. All regular solutions which avoid "total layout shutdown". - Nigel 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer71 Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Morning All As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured) I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe Tia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 14/01/2024 at 10:28, rogerzilla said: Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view Well, they tried this in real life on the GWSR at Broadway station and ran King Edward II over an incorrectly set loop turnout while running round. KE II got really upset about this and trashed the turnout comprehensively. The turnout required a rebuild and it was more than a month before they got it back in action. Tripping your DCC system seems a minor let-off by comparison, easily avoided by having separate trip devices for your track and for your accessories. Yours, Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 3 hours ago, sulzer71 said: Morning All As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured) I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe Tia Those switches with LEDs usually have a single pole switch, plus contacts to work the LED. But what was the specification you bought ? The diagram isn't clear on that. Why do you need the LED, compared to the standard toggle switch ? The toggle position indicates which way. Or, if wanting rotary to line up with a track diagram, then normal rotary switches (multiple pole, break-before-make types) are pretty cheap from UK suppliers. Why do you want centre-off ? Tortoise is a stall motor and expects to be constantly driven, after it has reached end of travel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted February 12 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12 3 hours ago, sulzer71 said: Morning All As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured) I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe Yes and no (I think)! The diagram for your switches looks like a single pole switch with connectors for an LED - would need to see from the back to be sure. Assuming they are only single pole then:- Can you wire it like the “standard switch”? No. Can you use it to drive a tortoise? Yes. You just need (a) differently configured power supply/supplies. In the tortoise wiring instructions (http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf ) the “standard” switch is Diagram 1. Your switches need Diagram 2 with 2 supplies or Diagram 3 with an AC supply and diodes. Hth Paul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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