UK Milk Tank Loading confirmation, was it top or bottom?

[mikesndbs]

We are all familiar with the 4 (pre 1937) and 6 wheeled (1937-70s) milk tank wagons used on our railways.

I thought I knew how they were filled.

A good friend (now gone) remembered them being filled with hoses from a lorry via the top hatch on the tank wagon. Hence the ladder etc.

The pipes were pushed down inside the tank near the bottom to prevent foam.

 

However I have seen it suggested that the tanks were filled via the outlet pipes at the bottom. Again to prevent foam.

 

While this makes sense and would possibly be a lot more 'clean' than sticking a pipe in a hole at the top lol the concept does not sit well with me as I do know that initially that churns of milk were poured into the top of the tanks.

 

Can anyone please confirm the method used?

 

Thanks

[37114]

Fill from bottom, as you say to prevent foaming. Where I think people get confused is they see what look like top loading gantries/pipework in pictures but this was used for cleaning of the tanks. 

 

I spent some time working with (Road) Milk tankers, everything was piped in/out at ground level. To clean the tank you would need to go on the top, open the lid, attach a "spinner" which looked like a T piece which would then be connect to a closed loop high pressure cleaning system which forced cleaning fluid up through a pipe into the spinner which then cleaned the tank for about 15 - 20 mins. Once clean/drained you had to go back up and remove the spinner etc and you were ready to load again.

[Cwmtwrch]

When loading from the bottom the top hatch would have to be open anyway, unless there was some other method of avoiding a build up of pressure within the tank...

[mikesndbs]

Thanks

 

Makes sense. However was this always the case my late friend used to work at UD and said that they did use large rubber pipes that had to be dipped into the tanks, the discharge pipe was then connected to this.

 

[62613]

9 hours ago, 37114 said:

Fill from bottom, as you say to prevent foaming. Where I think people get confused is they see what look like top loading gantries/pipework in pictures but this was used for cleaning of the tanks. 

 

I spent some time working with (Road) Milk tankers, everything was piped in/out at ground level. To clean the tank you would need to go on the top, open the lid, attach a "spinner" which looked like a T piece which would then be connect to a closed loop high pressure cleaning system which forced cleaning fluid up through a pipe into the spinner which then cleaned the tank for about 15 - 20 mins. Once clean/drained you had to go back up and remove the spinner etc and you were ready to load again.

That sounds a bit like the tank cleaning machines we used at sea, which were water - driven and could clean an entire cargo tank in a few hours. Two nozzles which spun in a vertical circle, the housing rotating horizontally. They used heated sea water

[Artless Bodger]

22 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

When loading from the bottom the top hatch would have to be open anyway, unless there was some other method of avoiding a build up of pressure within the tank...

I have seen the opposite, when unloading there needs to be a vent open on top if emptied by pump. Tankers delivering size to our mill usually opened the manhole lid, propped open enough by the clips, the size was then drawn off by our transfer pump*. A relief driver one day forgot to open the lid (or pehaps was more used to discharge by air pressure), when returning to the lorry after the hour or so required to discharge we found the side of the tank caved in. *Wallace and Tiernan 5" double headed diaphragm pump. 

[Karhedron]

Railway milk tanks were most definitely filled from the top but not from the large manhole cover. Milk tanks had a small inlet valve on the top on the top which was used for filling. I have multiple shots of tanks being filled and they always used the top valve. I think confusion arises from people who are more familiar with road tankers and assume they were filled the same way. Below are some shots of milk tanks being filled at various dairies.

 

United Dairies Wootton Bassett

 

Express Dairy Rowsley

 

United Dairy Moreton-in-Marsh

 

United Dairy Ecton

 

I cannot state 100% that rail tanks were never filled from the bottom but standard practice was definitely top-fill.

 

For more information as well as much better photos, please keep an eye out for my book on railway milk traffic which should be coming out in the Spring courtesy of Wild Swan.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Karhedron

[LBRJ]

So, if it was top loaded ( and I have no doubt it could well have been) how did they prevent the milk from foaming in the tank? Also, unless there was an airtight seal between the hose and filler cap there would also be access to the milk for whatever airborne "things" happened to be floating about in the atmosphere.

 

Judging by the amount of fresh liquid on the platform in the Rowsley picture it looks like they may be in the process of cleaning out those tanks.

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, LBRJ said:

So, if it was top loaded ( and I have no doubt it could well have been) how did they prevent the milk from foaming in the tank? Also, unless there was an airtight seal between the hose and filler cap there would also be access to the milk for whatever airborne "things" happened to be floating about in the atmosphere.

 

How foaming was prevented is a good question. One thing on my to-do list is to try and inspect one of the preserved milk tanks as a quick look inside would probably solve the mystery. It may be as simple as a 90-degree turn in the inlet valve would be enough to cause the milk to flow down around the inside of the tank rather than pouring straight down and foaming.

 

When milk tanks were first introduced, much fanfare was made about how hygienic they were compared to milk carried in churns. However it was still 1920s technology and I am not certain how well the seals and hygiene would compare to modern standards. The manager of the Express Dairy at South Morden mentioned to me that in the summer months in the 1970s, up to one third of incoming milk was rejected due to bacterial levels.

[scottystitch]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

For more information as well as much better photos, please keep an eye out for my book on railway milk traffic which should be coming out in the Spring courtesy of Wild Swan.

I shall look forward to that with great anticipation!

 

Perhaps you could give us a prompt on this thread, come the great date?

 

Best

Scott.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

A really interesting thread. Some milk tankers appear on my layout, though the dairy is off-stage further up the branch line and the tanks just come into the station to run-round, so I don't have to worry about depicting any loading facilities.

[mikesndbs]

Thanks everyone, this is most interesting.

Happy Christmas. 

[Pete Haitch]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

When milk tanks were first introduced, much fanfare was made about how hygienic they were compared to milk carried in churns. However it was still 1920s technology and I am not certain how well the seals and hygiene would compare to modern standards. The manager of the Express Dairy at South Morden mentioned to me that in the summer months in the 1970s, up to one third of incoming milk was rejected due to bacterial levels.

 

I think, that to gain a understanding of the percentage of milk  rejected due to high bacteria levels in the 1970s, one has to look at what was happening within the national dairy herd.  Changes in the types and breeds of cattle, government initiated drives to increase outputs with more focus on milk production rather than animal husbandry, and a reliance on pharma rather than welfare; all had a negative impact on endemic levels of Bovine Mastitis.  Combine this with bulk handling, and the levels of milk rejection were almost certain to increase despite the growth in the use of stainless steel and refrigeration. 

 

If a dairy rejected a churn of milk, that was (depending on era) 10 gallons down the drain. With the introduction of on-farm bulk tanks that 10 gallons had become, perhaps, 200 gallons. This then goes into a road tanker where it is mixed with milk from several other farms with an end result that the amount of contaminated milk (possibly from one cow only) is 200 times greater.

[Wickham Green too]

At one time my father reckoned to have a card file of every cow in Britain in his office at the MMB ........... but that's irrelevant !

 

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

How foaming was prevented is a good question. ...

Was the filler point actually a pipe that led near to the base of the tank ? - there might have been a little foaming until that outlet was flooded but not thereafter.

 

( Of course a pipe that led near to the base of the tank was exactly what Class A fuel tanks had for siphoning off the product ! )

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Wickham Green too
Siphon

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Was the filler point actually a pipe that led near to the base of the tank ? - there might have been a little foaming until that outlet was flooded but not thereafter.

 

( Of course a pipe that led near to the base of the tank was exactly what Class A fuel tanks had for siphoning off the product ! )

 

 

A pipe leading to the bottom of the tank is a very possible option. I must try and look at a preserved one. Whether the owners would let me open the manhole cover to look inside is another question. 

 

Whether I would fit through the manhole is a question I would rather not speculate on. ;)

[Wickham Green too]

Of course you could check how it's done in a more enlightened part of the world where milk is STILL carried by rail : - 

 

Surat ( N.of Mumbai ), 21/1/10

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Of course you could check how it's done in a more enlightened part of the world where milk is STILL carried by rail : - 

 

The same problem occurs as with modern road tankers in that they may not work in the same way as British rail tanks.. I have heard several people observe that road tanks are bottom-filled and I have no reason to doubt them but I have plenty of photos showing that this was not the case with rail tanks.

[Wickham Green too]

I certainly hope that Indian milk tank wagons are not bottom loaded as .......... er, how shall I put this tactfully ? ......... the bottoms of Indian trains run over tracks which are not particularly clean ( and I'm afraid bottoms come into the equation far too often ). 

[manna]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I certainly hope that Indian milk tank wagons are not bottom loaded as .......... er, how shall I put this tactfully ? ......... the bottoms of Indian trains run over tracks which are not particularly clean ( and I'm afraid bottoms come into the equation far too often ). 

G'Day Folks.

 

Wasn't that many years ago, all of BR's fleet of coaches loo's emptied onto the track, some still may do.

 

manna

[Wickham Green too]

Most Brits heeding the 'Do Not Flush in Stations' notice and the distribution of rain throughout the year made our railways a pretty effective filter bed.

[WillCav]

On 21/12/2023 at 21:49, Karhedron said:

...

For more information as well as much better photos, please keep an eye out for my book on railway milk traffic which should be coming out in the Spring courtesy of Wild Swan.

What's the title etc? And the author (I assume it won't be by Karhedron). 

Thanks

Will

[Karhedron]

On 15/01/2024 at 16:27, WillCav said:

What's the title etc? And the author (I assume it won't be by Karhedron). 

 

Milk on the Rails. By Matthew Pinto

 

Wild Swan Publishing

[Karhedron]

I have been chatting with Keith Sweetland who used to work at Express Dairy Seaton Junction. He has confirmed that tanks were always filled from the top.

 

Edited February 13 by Karhedron

[Halvarras]

Interesting that the question of top or bottom filling of milk has arisen. I remember a layout called 'Timsbury', set in former SDJR territory, which appeared in Railway Modeller in the 1980s, on which milk tanks were shown being filled from an overhead gantry. Somebody wrote into the letters page to say that this was incorrect, they were loaded from the bottom to prevent problems with foaming.......

 

Of course we didn't have the internet or RMweb back then.......

[mikesndbs]

38 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I have been chatting with Keith Sweetland who used to work at Express Dairy Seaton Junction. He has confirmed that tanks were always filled from the top.

 

 

Well that's interesting, how did they control ingress of dirt etc?