Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?

[Steamport Southport]

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

One of the things I have always found amusing is that some of the finest rolling stock modellers in the world are the men and women who work in Asian factories which make brass models. Those models really are factory assembled and finished brass kits and then painted and decalled (if factory painted) and the factory workers are extremely skilled at doing it. Manufacturers like Ajin and Samhongsa made the brass models sold by most of the American and European brass model companies (such as Overland, Challenger, PFM, Lemaco, Fulgurex, NMJ Superline etc) and some of the Japanese brass outfits, working to extraordinary high standards yet I suspect most of those building and painting the models had little or no interest in trains or models.

 

That's just assembly by following a procedure. Certainly not modelling as skillful as it can be.

 

I've worked in a car factory sticking bits of cars together, it doesn't make me an expert in cars and building them!

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That's just assembly by following a procedure. Certainly not modelling as skillful as it can be.

 

I've worked in a car factory sticking bits of cars together, it doesn't make me an expert in cars and building them!

 

 

Jason

 

It's exactly the same as building and finishing a kit, so if kit building is modelling then those doing so for companies like Ajin are modelling whether or not they know it. They are being paid and I suspect it is nothing more than a job, but the skills are exceptional given the standards of finish

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Manipulation is all around us. We see it in religion, we see it in politics, and maybe now in a harmless little hobby.

People have their own ends; "hits" on their social media site, "likes" on their YouTube, the gratification of being an "influencer".

Me? I'm just starting a new layout; Aston upon Trent. I'll just plough my lone furrow...

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, jjb1970 said:

 

It's exactly the same as building and finishing a kit, so if kit building is modelling then those doing so for companies like Ajin are modelling whether or not they know it. They are being paid and I suspect it is nothing more than a job, but the skills are exceptional given the standards of finish

 

It's not though. Far from it.

 

It's exactly the same as making cakes in a factory. Just because you are following a defined procedure doesn't make you a Cordon Bleu chef!

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

 

It's not though. Far from it.

 

It's exactly the same as making cakes in a factory. Just because you are following a defined procedure doesn't make you a Cordon Bleu chef!

 

 

 

Jason

 

Why not? Cooks follow recipes, procedures and pre-defined techniques. Another example is music, symphony orchestra members and soloists are taught how to read music and play their instrument and then play according to sheet music so are only following a procedure, does that mean they're not musicians? When people buy a kit they follow instructions and use imagery to finish it so are just following a procedure and working from a template.

[westernviscount]

50 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

think it’s called not taking yourself too seriously

There is a taking yourself TOO seriously? I am afraid I had no idea ;-) 

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Why not? Cooks follow recipes, procedures and pre-defined techniques. Another example is music, symphony orchestra members and soloists are taught how to read music and play their instrument and then play according to sheet music so are only following a procedure, does that mean they're not musicians? When people buy a kit they follow instructions and use imagery to finish it so are just following a procedure and working from a template.

 

Most kits don't even come with all the parts so you are improvising anyway. Maybe look at some of the kit building threads on here to see how much kitbuilders follow instructions....

 

Maybe that's why those who are purely RTR don't quite understand kit building if they think it's just open the box, look at the instructions, stick a few bits together and it's built!

 

Personally my botch jobs are nowhere near quality. I'm more of a trier that an attainer.

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Most kits don't even come with all the parts so you are improvising anyway. Maybe look at some of the kit building threads on here to see how much kitbuilders follow instructions....

 

Maybe that's why those who are purely RTR don't quite understand kit building if they think it's just open the box, look at the instructions, stick a few bits together and it's built!

 

Personally my botch jobs are nowhere near quality. I'm more of a trier that an attainer.

 

 

 

Jason

 

There's two separate issues:

 

-Is the kit complete? No, then you provide information on what's needed to complete it and those building it source the additional bits; and

-Is the kit sufficiently well designed to go together and with the necessary information for purchasers to assemble it. If no then the problem is with the kit not being well designed and lacking information.

 

I think a major reason many have little interest in rolling stock kits is the production values. I grew up making plastic kits and the products of companies set my expectations for what a kit should be - a set of components designed to go together manufactured to tight tolerances. I've looked at Japanese brass kits made by companies like KTM and Endo and they're extremely professionally produced, to the same standard of professionalism as the likes of Tamiya. They're an awful lot more expensive than typical British outline kits but the product also seems to be produced to a much higher standard.

[Andy Hayter]

I despair of the "People who only xxx are not proper modellers" arguments.

 

The problem is that those who shout such negative (against others) comments do not realise that there is a whole spectrum of modelling and I am almost certain that they are not at the pinnacle of the I am much better/purer than you mountain.

 

To illustrate

You are not a proper modeller because:

You only run rtr out of the box.

You only make minimal changes to rtr items - number and name changes.

You don't build kits.

You don't scratch build anything;

You run on non-scale track.

You are using EM and not P4 (other scale combinations are available in almost all scales).

You have not modelled a real location.

You have truncated your real location. 

You have not done your proper research. That loco could never have pulled that piece of stock.  (Oh actually I don't have a layout but I do know what is right and wrong.)

 

So where do you sit on that spectrum?  

 

Me?  00 gauge.  Have kit and scratch built stock but am not afraid to use rtr.  Happily scratch building infrastructure but at the same time will buy in components such as window, doors, textured sheets etc..  

 

 

[wombatofludham]

3 hours ago, PMP said:

You extrapolated. You provided a text book example of extrapolation commenting on the lack of weathered buildings and pristine track. If you don't like comments regarding you extrapolating something, don't extrapolate.

 

I wasn't going to bother but seeing as you commented.

I'm not extrapolating, I'm commenting on a wide range of videos on the Tube.  In particular, I have watched the good compilation videos of a videographer going by the name of DCC125 who clearly visits a lot of shows and does show the layouts in good detail, as well as others.  I don't think the videos are in any way selective.  Whilst there are those layouts which have applied weathering to the environment, there are a lot more where the weathering is either non-existent (or, to elaborate a bit more on my original post, not enough, which isn't quite the same I grant you).  Now in my original post I said " Yet a lot of the layouts I've seen film of have nice, clean ballast." which isn't the same as extrapolating, "a lot of" doesn't mean all, it's an observation.  I also said:
 

Quote

Of course none of these observations in any way negates my respect and admiration for the modelling, and the exhibitors who have given up their time and incurred considerable expense and inconvenience to show off their modelling, which is often in all other aspects fantastic and deserving of praise.  Nor would I consider these things "deal breakers", I'm not that anally retentive, but it does seem a bit odd.  Of course, I suppose the correct attitude to take, which is what I do when at an exhibition in person, is to view the layout as a work of art, and as such, is allowed artistic interpretation and as such should be enjoyed in the round.  So what if the pigs are the wrong kind of pigs, the buildings look like they have just been erected and not a trackside fertilised tomato plant is to be seen, at least someone has produced a working artwork, sometimes of subjects which are unfamiliar or challenging.

...and for that reason I'm not about to start naming layouts where, in my observation based on visits and video of exhibitions I think the weathering has been non-existent or insufficient.  I respect the exhibitor's choice to present their artwork as they see fit.  Yes there are those who do weather everything to realistic levels, but I've seen enough video and first hand observation of exhibits at a wide range of exhibitions recently to express surprise at the number of layouts which seem to be presented in, to my eyes, an unrealistic state of environmental weathering.  And I'll re-iterate it doesn't alter my admiration and respect for the modelling concerned.

[Reorte]

There's no such thing as a "proper" modeller. There are people who are much more skilled than others (I'm both envious of them and appreciate what they're capable of), but that doesn't make them more "proper." I'm also happy saying that some models and some layouts are better than others. There's a large degree of subjectivity in there of course, but that's always true of the word "better." The only fact is that my better may well not be someone else's.

 

As for disparaging remarks about hobbies and interests they're never worthwhile. There are things I'm simply not interested in, but the only ones I'll sneer at are those that are deliberately damaging (i.e. someone who's idea of a good way of spending time involves leaving a heap of litter behind, or smashed windows or painted scrawls on someone else's wall).

[jjb1970]

The secret to enjoying any hobby or interest in my opinion is to do it for your reasons and to enjoy what you do without worrying about whether others approve.

[Willie Whizz]

3 hours ago, westernviscount said:

There is a taking yourself TOO seriously? I am afraid I had no idea ;-) 

Apparently in the Civil Service it used to be the practice to chide an over-eager or pompous subordinate by saying: “Smithers, you have broken the Third Rule: you have taken yourself too seriously”

 

’Smithers’ would then typically answer: “I didn’t realise - but tell me please, so I don’t err again, what are the first two Rules?”

 

At which the senior would give a thin smile and say: “I think that rather proves my point … “

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The secret to enjoying any hobby or interest in my opinion is to do it for your reasons and to enjoy what you do without worrying about whether others approve.

 

I agree but if you build layouts for public exhibition then outside approval is also required, so it is a bit more complex than your one liner.  

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think it was Eric Treacy who, when asked why he took (railway) photos, replied that it was for his own pleasure.

 

This is just my own opinion, but I feel the greatest artists (musicians, scientists, writers, etc...) are the selfish ones who do it for their own pleasure. 

 

Not to follow a trend, not to copy someone else, not because they want to please others. 

 

Just for themselves.

 

Anything else is a bonus...

[Pacific231G]

On 23/02/2024 at 09:24, TEAMYAKIMA said:

OK, let's stop talking about being positive - let's DO something positive - let's support a club which is being VERY positive.

 

Abingdon & District MRC are celebrating their 50th anniversary this year with their first ever TWO DAY show on March 2/3.

 

Yes, that's right - at a time when clubs are pulling out of putting on shows, at a time when two day shows are shrinking to one day shows, Abingdon and District MRC are going the other way - they are expanding, they are being positive, they are taking a risk in order to send out a positive vibe - time for us to put our money where our mouth is and support this kind of positivity.

 

How do I know so much about this show? Because we are going to be there and so, if you want to learn more about Chinese railways, you can always come and talk to me.

 

 

 

I went to the Abingdon show yesterday and it was very good indeed with a good range of layouts from the very large (like Yakima that was attracting a healthy spectatorship) to small simple layouts.  Overall it presented a very positive image of our hobby. 

 

I've been looking at videos of a couple of recent largish shows in France and this one particularly struck me 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtopULJoBQ8&ab_channel=LF_MODELISME

In terms of seeing the layouts there are better videos on Youtube of this particular show (St. Mandé 2024 held in the town hall of one of the outer Paris suburbs) but, unusually,  the videographer, interviewed the presenters of as many of the layouts as possible. They're probably saying much the same as their British equivalents would if asked and I certainly didn't wade through 2h23m of it but what did strike me , spinning through it ,  was  their age profile which seems to be significantly younger than it would be in Britain. That  accords with my own impressions from past exhibitions there. 

Overall the hobby is smaller in France than in Britain  with an estimated (by Loco-revue) total of about 30 000 active modellers (excluding collectors)  of which about 7000 are members of the country's 280 or so clubs.

My impression has also been that clubs there are rather more successful at attracting younger members and railway modelling seems accepted like any other loisir (hobby) and it's quite common for male exhibitors to be accompanied by their wives who often operate the layout .

The hobby also seems to be less engaged in nostalgia than in the inherent pleasures of modelling though layout operation (i.e, shunting)  is far more limited and most large club layouts are based on trains running through often quite magnificent scenery. 

Based on those who used to bring layouts from Europe to British shows like ExpoNG or Eurotrack it looks like the picture is similar in countries  like Belgium and the Netherlands but I can't be sure of that. 

Edited March 3 by Pacific231G

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Reorte said:

There's no such thing as a "proper" modeller.

And "improper" ones may be more fun. 

[CKPR]

Is possibly the case that the term 'railway modelling' refers to two different but interlinked  acitivities, namely making railway models and making model railways ? A few people such as Peter Denny, P.D.Hancock, etc have done both at the same time, some of us do both but separately like Iain Rice with his finescale model making and his Hornby Dublo layout, and some of us primarily  do one or the other. As for other forms of modelling, there is perhaps a similar relationship between military modelling and wargaming, in that whilst both involve miniature military models, the amount of model making in wargaming can vary from quite a lot to buying stuff in, all of which is then used in simulations of  miniature battles that involve imagination as well as rules [dons tin hat and ducks under the nearest table].

Edited March 4 by CKPR

[jjb1970]

When I was young there was something which tended to be called an operator layout, basic scenery (possibly none) but with very prototypical signalling and operation. That was another part of model railways, one which seemed to fade away.

[jjb1970]

8 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I agree but if you build layouts for public exhibition then outside approval is also required, so it is a bit more complex than your one liner.  

 

 True.

 

In some ways that's another sub-hobby within the overall tent. I have known people whose only interest in layouts was to exhibit them and had no interest in a private layout or a layout confined to a club room to work on and operate. Equally, I know many with zero interest in either visiting or exhibiting at exhibitions.

 

Many years ago I went to a few exhibitions with a model club I was a member of and it was interesting to see the different dynamic among those who went. I helped as I was planning to go anyway because I wanted to see what traders like M.G. Sharpe and MacKay (two excellent shops which specialized in overseas outline back in the day) so thought I should help out, others clearly took it extremely seriously and saw it as almost a purpose in life. Not criticising taking an exhibition seriously as if people are paying a fee to see layouts then there should be a degree of professionalism in how those layouts are exhibited and people should be entertained.

[Craigw]

16 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It's exactly the same as building and finishing a kit, so if kit building is modelling then those doing so for companies like Ajin are modelling whether or not they know it. They are being paid and I suspect it is nothing more than a job, but the skills are exceptional given the standards of finish

 

I had quite a collection of NSW railways HO scale brass at one point and the quality of it varied enormously. A number of them were very indifferent runners (Ajin!)  while the later Samhongsa models as well as the Ajin models varied a great deal in quality. I had one loco tender that had a huge bow in it when unpacked. They also had varying quality of castings and soldering too.

 

Brass has its own issues too. The people who work in the factories are model builders but few of them do that as a hobby.

[roundhouse]

Like others have said, the Abingdon show was superb and so busy . We had over three deep at times looking at Banbury in the classroom we had just for ourselves yet all were able to still see the layout. All layouts were superb although as usual being with a layout,  I didn't get much time to watch many of them.

 

With so many comments on various threads that there is often too much trade at shows, one of the club members said that hey had comments that there wasn't enough trade. You cant please everyone. 

So despite there being a much greater ratio of layouts to traders, they seem to have been very happy with the attendance and this show is likely to be repeated next year so one to keep an eye on. 

 

The alarm was set off as we arrived to unload and security was there within seconds plus the fire alarm was set off on the Saturday. Its a new venue for them so no doubt a bit of a learning curve.

 

We were well looked after both food and accommodation. I would be very happy attending this show again with another layout.

Edited March 4 by roundhouse

[CKPR]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

When I was young there was something which tended to be called an operator layout, basic scenery (possibly none) but with very prototypical signalling and operation. That was another part of model railways, one which seemed to fade away.

Often O gauge using LMC products, powered by 3 rail or, better still, clockwork and having that elusive railway atmosphere that so few of us manage to capture these days.

[jjb1970]

18 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

I had quite a collection of NSW railways HO scale brass at one point and the quality of it varied enormously. A number of them were very indifferent runners (Ajin!)  while the later Samhongsa models as well as the Ajin models varied a great deal in quality. I had one loco tender that had a huge bow in it when unpacked. They also had varying quality of castings and soldering too.

 

Brass has its own issues too. The people who work in the factories are model builders but few of them do that as a hobby.

 

Brass models are notorious for being temperamental. In my experience the problems stem from details around the wheels and valve gear. The brass market went down the road of maximum detail and fidelity to prototype. The result was staggeringly finely detailed models which were difficult to get out of the box in some cases without an anxiety attack. Because a lot of the details were so fine it was very easy to distort them and end up getting shorts, tight spots etc. Once on the track they generally run very well and it tends to be more of a problem for steam locomotives. The older models made by manufacturers like Microcast Mizuno, Toby and Fujiyama had less detailing but run like sewing machine and are very robust. 

 

On finish,  none of mine have had any defects or flaws. There are differences, Japanese manufacturers tend to go for less extreme detail than those in Korea and China but tend to be better operator models. Although any generalisation is just that and manufacturers like Ajin worked the a specification agreed with the commissioning company so not all were the same. There is still an element of the micro bubble of brass enthusiasts which thinks real models come from Japan.  Despite myself being a  great enthusiast of Japanese models (with Japanese outline stuff from Tenshodo, Endo and KTM made in Japan) I think the Korean manufacturers were capable of producing more impressive  models. Some Japanese companies such as Musashino used Korean manufacturers and interestingly Tomix HO locomotives (plastic RTR) are manufactured in Korea.

 

Quality wise, I have models manufactured 60 years ago which are still fine and still decent models. None of them have suffered quality issues. The big quality issue to be aware of concerns Ajin, there have been examples of muzak rock on the axle gearbox casings, it's rare but it has happened. 

[Pacific231G]

On 04/03/2024 at 00:23, jjb1970 said:

When I was young there was something which tended to be called an operator layout, basic scenery (possibly none) but with very prototypical signalling and operation. That was another part of model railways, one which seemed to fade away.

I think that approach may have reflected a world (which I'm just old enough to remember) where, if you wanted to watch steam hauled expresses on one hand or the shunting of a marshalling yard on the other you could just go out and do so but what you couldn't do was to experience the actual operation of a railway. 

Modelling the operation of a railway is just as valid an area of modelling as recreating a railway scene. They're not of course mutually exclusive and many of us at least try to do both but the degree of each will inevitably reflect our own interests.

I do find that the layouts that most appeal to me at exhibitions are those that present me with a credible railway scene in which trains do more than just run through it. Good examples of this for me have been the late Geoff Ashdown's Tower Pier (with its Widened Lines atmosphere and operation effectively from a  lever frame and block instrument  equipped signal box),  Bradfield Gloucester Square, Peter Denny's Leighton Buzzard (as exhibited by Tony Gee and also operated with block instruments), Borchester Market, and a number of others. 

Though I'm not sure if I'd describe it as a layout, one of the exhibits I found most attractive  at Abingdon was Peter Boyce's GW Broad Gauge "Parlour Railway"  with its mahogany panels, velvet curtains and green shaded brass lamps. Though trains (all beautifully modelled in 7mm scale) just shuttled back and forth .It rather reminded me of the fully signalled training railways (usually Gauge 1 or even 3 )  used by railway companies mainly to teach signalling staff

LNWR training railway 1910 

(on a table 20' long in two sections of "sound mahogany, French polished")

 

but also the display railways  presented at major exhibitions  by several pre -grouping railway companies.

LMS display 1925

I think such approaches  could well still have their place. 

 

I also find it interesting that, of the model railways, that seemed most influential in the 1950s and 1960s, only the Craig and Mertonford didn't have a heavy dose of operation. The many articles from the builders of Buckingham, Charford and Berrow  (to name just three) all included detailed accounts of their operation and timetabling.   

Edited March 5 by Pacific231G