Tata Steel to close Port Talbot blast furnaces and replace with electric-arc.

[C126]

As no-one else appears to be marking this grim news, I thought I would put a thead up.  Please ignore if duplicated elsewhere or there is no interest.  B.B.C. News web-sites:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68022901

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-68023528

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67748505

 

Please correct me if wrong, but I think these are the last U.K. blast furnaces functioning.  The Community trade union rep. pointed out that with these closures of 'sovereign assets', the nation would be unable to refine iron ore domestically.

 

A very bad start to the weekend.

 

 

Edited January 19 by C126
Added 3d link about its beauty.

[4630]

They're not the last blast furnaces functioning as Scunthorpe still, for now, have theirs although closure of those was announced too last November.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-67329074

 

 

Edited January 19 by 4630

[Jeremy Cumberland]

We don't mine iron ore in this country, and barely mine coal any more. Wouldn't it be better for iron ore smelters (whatever method is used) to be closer to where the raw materials are found?

 

I feel for the workers at the steelworks and in related industries who risk losing their jobs, and the whole commumity which will suffer as a result, but I think the argument that we will be unable to refine iron ore domestically is a spurious one.

[Ian Hargrave]

The closure of what started its life as The Steel Company of Wales Margam Abbey Works is a very real human tragedy for Port Talbot & the surrounding area. It sticks in my craw,as someone who has a long association with the area,that I read just now the BBC News App post the question “Where is Port Talbot? “ .The media are it seems understandably anxious to hype the environmental benefits. Right now,that’s not going to mollify the anxiety felt this weekend. 
 

My late wife worked as a social worker there when we were first married. I remember eating a picnic lunch together on Margam Burrows overlooking the works. My father helped supply brick & pipe works to the site when it was under construction. My mother,as a young district nurse,visited the Jenkins family in the nearby village of Pontrhydyfen. One of the family’s offspring went to the local grammar school in Port Talbot where he was taken under the wing of his English teacher and grew up to reinvent himself as Richard Burton.  Both Antony Hopkins and Michael Sheen followed in his footsteps from the town. That’s where Port Talbot is. I am incredibly sad.
 

 

 

[woodenhead]

To me it comes down to why they are doing it:

• Is it because it is no longer economic for them to transport the ore to Margam from elsewhere in the world to then turn it into steel for onward sale.  Then the question would be why is that and could anything be done, surely the UK must have a demand for fresh steel?
• Is it because Tata want to run down the UK Steel in favour of other countries where they get better financial support.  Interesting this is happening in an election year although it has been on the cards for some time.  Perhaps more chance of a Government backed support scheme or an opposition promise of support when there are votes about to be cast.
• Is it because Tata are being forced to reduce carbon in the UK to meet Goverment targets?  Then all we are doing is moving the problem elsewhere, exporting our carbon footprint and then sneering at those foreign countries who continue to use technologies that involve carbon because what choice is there.

[APOLLO]

This carbon footprint milarkey will reduce us all to cave dwellers without a wood fire at the entrance !!!!!!!!!!!

 

I wonder where HS2 rails will be made, or will HS2 be paved over and used as a busway to save yet more money ? 

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

We don't mine iron ore in this country, and barely mine coal any more. Wouldn't it be better for iron ore smelters (whatever method is used) to be closer to where the raw materials are found?

 

I feel for the workers at the steelworks and in related industries who risk losing their jobs, and the whole commumity which will suffer as a result, but I think the argument that we will be unable to refine iron ore domestically is a spurious one.

......and that is how this problem started. Some time ago, a decision was made to close one of the two South Wales steel works. LLanwern had the best rolling  mill, but Port Talbot had access to a deep water dock, where, raw material could be unloaded. A lot of people thought that the decision was the wrong one. Me included, but I am biased, as my work involved material made at both works and Llanwern steel was usually better suited for what the company I worked for required. Not to mention that they provided a fair chunk of my income at one time. The UK will be the only G20 country that cannott produce new steel. If you see that as an issue of national security or not,  should have an influence on how you view this closure.

 

Actually it all goes back much further, usually involving politicians making some very odd decisions. These decisions nearly always come back to bite them on the bum. Then there is the question of how we manage critical industries post Brexit. Do you want to give steel making to the  EU and rely on imports?

Bernard

[Dava]

Would someone with engineering or metallurgical knowledge kindly list what types of special steels & products can’t be manufactured from recycled steel?

 

And maybe where they’d have to be sourced from?

 

This seems to being left out of the reportage. 
 

Dava

[BoD]

24 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I wonder where HS2 rails will be made

 

At the Steelworks and Rail Mill in Workington...

 

... oh, wait a minute though.

[Neil]

As I see it the principle downside to the closure of the blast furnaces and their replacement with an electric arc furnace is the lost jobs. We need to move to greater recycling of materials and this would take us a step in that direction. Unless we want to see an ever warming world for our children and grandchildren then we have to change how we do things; the old ways can't continue. It is magic thinking to imagine that tackling climate change can be done without change and that we should have some sort of special exemption for polluting industries that contribute to global warming. 

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Neil said:

As I see it the principle downside to the closure of the blast furnaces and their replacement with an electric arc furnace is the lost jobs. We need to move to greater recycling of materials and this would take us a step in that direction. Unless we want to see an ever warming world for our children and grandchildren then we have to change how we do things; the old ways can't continue. It is magic thinking to imagine that tackling climate change can be done without change and that we should have some sort of special exemption for polluting industries that contribute to global warming. 

I understand your point but if we as a country outsource all our industrial capabilities and rely on the friendliness of other countries to do business with us then what sort of future do our children have in a country that produces nothing.

 

Knowledge & financial services is great but it's vested in a small group of rich people, it's not something that helps the masses eat.

 

We've already demonstrated that we cannot even build a railway line from London to Manchester and it appears to be because we cannot afford to .

[APOLLO]

39 minutes ago, Neil said:

As I see it the principle downside to the closure of the blast furnaces and their replacement with an electric arc furnace is the lost jobs. We need to move to greater recycling of materials and this would take us a step in that direction. Unless we want to see an ever warming world for our children and grandchildren then we have to change how we do things; the old ways can't continue. It is magic thinking to imagine that tackling climate change can be done without change and that we should have some sort of special exemption for polluting industries that contribute to global warming. 

 

Send that message to India, China, USA, Russia and Australia who supply both India and China with many millions of tons of Iron Ore & Coal (Russia and the USA have ample supplies of both, AND intend to use it).

 

I agree re recycling though I would not like to be on a HS2 train riding at 225mph on rails made by recycled Heinz bean tins though.

 

Ever warming world ? - Minus 6 this morning here in Wigan. I'm getting thoroughly sick of the green agenda being thrust down my throat while the rest of the world do next to nothing AND take all our industry etc with it's inherant CO2 etc emissions.

 

We in the UK will be industrially impotent very soon, and financially insolvent very soon after.

 

Think carefully.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19 by APOLLO

[Peter Eaton]

when our Moon or Planetary exploration is undertaken, steel with thus be manufacture there, a bit like our old ''British Empire'' days, the ships thus transporting the finish materials will be the stumbling blocks as these will also have to be made there, but on arrive can be scrapped & put in the recycling furnaces.

 

l was brought up in the shadows of the Blast Furnaces of Stanton Iron Works in Ilkeston ! .

made famous this year with the Hornby Coke wagons..

Plus holiday in Porthcawl for the last 5 years for obvious reasons.

 

 

Peter

[russ p]

What's annoying me is they are saying blast furnaces are coal fired which they aren't. 

Also the woolly mammoth in the room is that electric arc steel is not suitable for the the manufacturer of car body panels 

So loosing our steel industry could also lead to the end of the foreign car plants here which also employ thousands 

As usual with this lot India benefits again 🤬

I won't comment again as it will become political 

[Deano]

I feel very sad for those families effected by the news of this closure. Fingers crossed they all find jobs quickly and are suitably recompensed financially to enable them to keep paying those bills until they do.

Edited January 19 by Deano

[Tim Dubya]

8 minutes ago, russ p said:

I won't comment again as it will become political 

 

All I will say is, they're all responsible for selling the family silver.  Every single administration.

[Deano]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

 

Ever warming world ? - Minus 6 this morning here in Wigan. I'm getting thoroughly sick of the green agenda being thrust down my throat while the rest of the world do next to nothing AND take all our industry etc with it's inherant CO2 etc emissions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've often wondered why UK PLC doesn't insist we mine coal and ore here, but do it responsibly and managed. This way the world would be better off Co2 wise and the countries that don't care won't get the extra work, creating more Co2.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

As I see it the principle downside to the closure of the blast furnaces and their replacement with an electric arc furnace is the lost jobs. We need to move to greater recycling of materials and this would take us a step in that direction. Unless we want to see an ever warming world for our children and grandchildren then we have to change how we do things; the old ways can't continue. It is magic thinking to imagine that tackling climate change can be done without change and that we should have some sort of special exemption for polluting industries that contribute to global warming. 

 

And that, as I see it, is the crux of the matter. At the present time, heavy industry is extremely polluting, both in terms of emissions and impacts on the local environment. There is also the economic factor. My very rudimentary understanding of electric arc vs blast furnaces suggests that the former are more energy efficient and flexible. If you are going to make your facility more flexible and future proofed, then electric arc seems to be the most logical approach. Sadly this means a reduction in workforce, however anyone who believes that we will move to a greener economy and retaining the same level of skilled manual jobs, is going to be sorely disappointed. 

 

Politicians and others who on one hand espouse green credentials and campaign against heavy industry, or oil exploration or mining, cannot complain when the inevitable closure of such polluting facilities have an impact on local employment and communities. That is the price that is paid; however tragic that is for the communities. People can be retrained, and the need for commodities such as steel is still required, so there is a future. And that future is being developed as we speak; more efficient production methods, less raw materials required, less energy required in the production.

 

As has been mentioned before, outsourcing coal mining, steel making and other polluting activities does not solve the issue - it merely transfers the issue to someone else; especially galling when countries such as the UK beat up others for their high carbon emissions, when we are customers of those countries.

 

Perhaps a fairer way of attributing emissions would be to spread those produced in a country to the emissions figures of their customers.  So for example, it has been said that China produced 1,875 million tons of steel in 2019, resulting in at least 3,375 million tons of CO2 being generated. If 10% of that was exported, then surely 10% of the emissions should be attributed to the customer countries (the product is for them, and in the past likely as not they would have produced it themselves). This may help reduce the drive to reduce heavy manufacturing in a country to meet green targets, but actually only shift the issue elsewhere - and yes I know that economies of scale will impact on the calculations.

 

In saying all of this, it is regrettable that for the sake of headline chasing, a clear and sustainable plan was not on the agenda for any of our governments over the last few decades. Closing coal power stations in particular at a time when our need for electricity is significantly increasing without a consistent, reliable and most importantly upwardly scalable alternative for providing this electricity, will not win favour with the populace when they cannot charge their car; irrespective of how many pats on the back the politicians may get a climate summits... 

 

As with so many things, the need for immediate results or a 'lasting legacy' causes so much more damage. But then, when has a long-term sensible approach (an approach that would inevitably encompass more than one government) ever been a palatable option? Ultimately you cannot have the best of both worlds today, either option will have its supporters and detractors, but sadly no matter which approach it taken there will be those who lose out. So glad I am not a decision maker!

 

Edited January 19 by Claude_Dreyfus

[Neil]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I understand your point but if we as a country outsource all our industrial capabilities and rely on the friendliness of other countries to do business with us then what sort of future do our children have in a country that produces nothing.

 

Knowledge & financial services is great but it's vested in a small group of rich people, it's not something that helps the masses eat.

 

We've already demonstrated that we cannot even build a railway line from London to Manchester and it appears to be because we cannot afford to .

 

Moving to cleaner, greener ways of manufacturing isn't the same as advocating outsourcing all our industrial capabilities. Likewise smelting ore or for that matter coal mining, drilling for oil and their like are not the sum total of UK industrial activity.

 

Not building HS2 is a political choice rather than an economic one.

 

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Send that message to India, China, USA, Russia and Australia who supply both India and China with many millions of tons of Iron Ore & Coal (Russia and the USA have ample supplies of both, AND intend to use it).

 

I agree re recycling though I would not like to be on a HS2 train riding at 225mph on rails made by recycled Heinz bean tins though.

 

Ever warming world ? - Minus 6 this morning here in Wigan. I'm getting thoroughly sick of the green agenda being thrust down my throat while the rest of the world do next to nothing AND take all our industry etc with it's inherant CO2 etc emissions.

 

We in the UK will be industrially impotent very soon, and financially insolvent very soon after.

 

Think carefully.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Well yes, I can see why you would be fed up with the rest of the world doing nothing to tackle climate change however that's not the case. For example the USA is now far more enthusiastic about getting to net zero than it was under Trump, China too is gearing up for green energy. Just because some other countries lag behind is that a good enough reason to not try ourselves. If we give up then we will be part of the global problem.

 

 

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

I agree re recycling though I would not like to be on a HS2 train riding at 225mph on rails made by recycled Heinz bean tins though.

Personally I'd just prefer to live in a world that doesn't think racing around at such ludicrous speeds is a worthwhile development.

 

Making as much use of recycling as is practical is clearly worthwhile but if the total amount of stuff built is increasing (something else everyone seems to want but I'm rather sceptical about) then recycling clearly isn't going to be able to cover everything.

[Bernard Lamb]

28 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Moving to cleaner, greener ways of manufacturing isn't the same as advocating outsourcing all our industrial capabilities. Likewise smelting ore or for that matter coal mining, drilling for oil and their like are not the sum total of UK industrial activity.

 

Not building HS2 is a political choice rather than an economic one.

 

 

Well yes, I can see why you would be fed up with the rest of the world doing nothing to tackle climate change however that's not the case. For example the USA is now far more enthusiastic about getting to net zero than it was under Trump, China too is gearing up for green energy. Just because some other countries lag behind is that a good enough reason to not try ourselves. If we give up then we will be part of the global problem.

 

 

Very true. But in this case we are outsourcing all our production capability in respect of making steel.

The proposal is to stop making steel from iron ore and just to recycle the steel that we have. This obviously is not sustainable. We will have to import more scrap steel to melt down and import types of steel that we need but cannot produce. We simply export the pollution, probably to countries that have lower standards than we have.

One long term answer would be to build a massive steel works in Vietnam to take advantage of the local high grade ore. That would be capable of supplying much of the world's capacity and be greener than anything that exists today. But the Americans and the Chinese would never agree to let that happen.

Bernard

[APOLLO]

With two wars going on right now with no end in sight, and one of those seriously affecting trade through the Suez canal etc I think it is lunacy to even think about ending UK steel production.

 

Brit15

 

 

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Deano said:

I feel very sad for those families effected by the news of this closure. Fingers crossed they all find jobs quickly and are suitably recompensed financially to enable them to keep paying those bills until they do.

Unfortunately, in South Wales, that laudable hope will need a lot more than crossed fingers to be realised…

 

 

[jjb1970]

I don't see this as the negative others do. Of course the implication for jobs is sad, but I think a shift to electric arc has a better chance of providing a long term future for steel in Britain than blast furnaces. There is now a lot of pressure to use 'green steel' made using recycled steel in preference to virgin steel, that won't obviate the need for continued smelting of ores but it does indicate a major shift in steel production. 

[APOLLO]

I see it as another nail in the coffin of British industry.

 

We will all be living in caves soon (that we will not own) but we WILL be happy !!!!!!

 

Brit15