Tata Steel to close Port Talbot blast furnaces and replace with electric-arc.

[APOLLO]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

We are not abandoning steel production, the idea that replacing blast furnaces with electric arc processes means we are is scare mongering. A far more flexible production process, which can be much cleaner and which has a lot more potential to keep British steelmaking viable. If it's about being reliant on imports (and those nasty Chinese,  never miss an opportunity to raise that dark spectre) then that train left the station years ago. Why so much concern about steel, advanced semi-conductors are a bigger vulnerability in the modern world if it's about national security.

 

From what I read (and view) Globalisation is falling apart at the seams, as apparently is China. But China is huge and has a very long way to fall, we will see.

 

China want Taiwan, especially TMC who make high end chips (using machines built in The Netherlands & ARM (British) technology, amongst many others. I believe the USA is building a huge high end chip plant in case Taiwan falls.

 

It will be interesting to see high end steels can be made out of Heinz bean tins, with renewable energy.

 

The world is entering a dark phase (Ukraine, Gaza, Iran, Yemen, N Korea, Russia, CCP (Chinese Communist Party) etc are all agitating increasingly. The world's policeman (USA) is asleep and skint.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

I asked a friend who is chief metallurgist at a company whose main revenue stream is certificating steel and he advises that most commercially used steel grades can be produced using electric arc technology and that the exotic super high strength alloys are quite limited production anyway.

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

I know politics should really be kept off of this forum,but aren't they interlinked with the subject matter?

I probably take a too-simplistic view,but I remember reports in recent memory to the effect that China was able to "dump" cheap steel into the UK.Now the prevailing attitude in the Western world is "be wary of China".

In my lifetime,so many industries have been allowed to falter,and some to virtually collapse.I  often heard "rising costs" were cited as a reason,I don't know about that but maybe more effort should have been made to contain costs,then perhaps we wouldn't be so reliant on imports.

The loss of so many jobs at Port Talbot is a tragedy for those concerned,irrespective of any views on carbon footprint etc.Of course,the UK has had to modernise,but so many of the jobs lost in recent times will never be coming back.I doubt whether an occupation such as writing a "fashion blog" will help sustain the UK economy in years to come.

Do you all remember the talk about "The Establishment"? In my view,they're alive and well,doing very nicely thank you and laughing at the rest of us....

[IWCR]

The  coal  mine  serving  Port  Talbot  closed  last  year,  still  viable  but  not  wanted  by  the  Welsh  government.

Now  with  Iron  Ore  and  the  coal  both  needed  to  be  imported  the  closure  of  the  blast  furnaces  was  inevitable.

Government  Policy,  export  the  pollution.

 

Pete

 

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

I know politics should really be kept off of this forum,but aren't they interlinked with the subject matter?

I probably take a too-simplistic view,but I remember reports in recent memory to the effect that China was able to "dump" cheap steel into the UK.Now the prevailing attitude in the Western world is "be wary of China".

In my lifetime,so many industries have been allowed to falter,and some to virtually collapse.I  often heard "rising costs" were cited as a reason,I don't know about that but maybe more effort should have been made to contain costs,then perhaps we wouldn't be so reliant on imports.

Is it so much rising costs as places elsewhere undercutting? Certainly doing anything without being cheap and nasty gets more and more expensive, right through from small bits and bobs at home through to large industries. Some of that's down to things we don't really want to get rid of - expecting people to be paid decent wages and have decent working conditions for example, although I find it rather hypocritical that we're happy to put rules about such in place then import from other countries that don't come close to a similar level.

[62613]

12 hours ago, LBRJ said:

My acquaintances, as mentioned in my previous post, were of the opinion that the only potential issue could be a short term short fall in overall production capacity.

The point that we currently export a lot of our scrap metals is relevant.

As I thought, but wanted to confirm, most of the steel produced here is made by using the electric arc process anyway; all special steels are also made that way. Blast furnaces only make the most basic of steel.

I always thought that blast furnaces made the raw iron from ore. Producing the steel is a further process, at first using the Bessemer - Mushet process, then open - hearth, and then more controllable processes such as LD or electric arc. There is a lot of carbon in raw iron absorbed from the coke; to make steel, you have to get rid of all but about 0.1 to 0.8% of it.

 

 

[LBRJ]

They do.

 I wrote steel when I meant iron.

We had been  talking about steel making, thats what Sheffield Forgemasters do.

[admiles]

5 hours ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

I know politics should really be kept off of this forum,but aren't they interlinked with the subject matter?

I probably take a too-simplistic view,but I remember reports in recent memory to the effect that China was able to "dump" cheap steel into the UK.Now the prevailing attitude in the Western world is "be wary of China".

In my lifetime,so many industries have been allowed to falter,and some to virtually collapse.I  often heard "rising costs" were cited as a reason,I don't know about that but maybe more effort should have been made to contain costs,then perhaps we wouldn't be so reliant on imports.

The loss of so many jobs at Port Talbot is a tragedy for those concerned,irrespective of any views on carbon footprint etc.Of course,the UK has had to modernise,but so many of the jobs lost in recent times will never be coming back.I doubt whether an occupation such as writing a "fashion blog" will help sustain the UK economy in years to come.

Do you all remember the talk about "The Establishment"? In my view,they're alive and well,doing very nicely thank you and laughing at the rest of us....

 

We have a very easy and effective way to control the import (dumping) of "cheap" Chinese steel into the UK. Anti-dumping duties.  Widely in use already to increase the price of imported steel to the point it becomes unattractive to buyers.  Of course that also has the side effect of increasing the cost of steel products but I'm sure the average "Joe" won't mind paying a bit more to support British jobs....won't they?

 

Incidentally the "B" event has made it easier for "us" to implement such controls. Of course the EU also use Anti-dumping duties for the same reason.  

[westernfan]

8 hours ago, IWCR said:

 

Government  Policy,  export  the  pollution.

 

Along with the jobs, the prospects and the futures of the workers. All so Sunak can beat his chest and say "What a good boy I am" in making Britain a world leader in reducing emissions. (Not global emissions, because the same pollution is still produced, just somewhere else.) In fact, every time this sort of action is taken, MORE pollution is generated in transporting the imports we need to replace what we once produced at home, coal being a prime example.

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, IWCR said:

The  coal  mine  serving  Port  Talbot  closed  last  year,  still  viable  but  not  wanted  by  the  Welsh  government.

 

There are two sides to that coin, the other being that the 'mine' was a large opencast site, a quarry in other words, which was a significant dust and noise problem to those living in the quite densely populated immediat area, and had been operating illegally for some time after it's licence to do so had been withdrawn and an appeal lodged, to be eventually not allowed.  The operator showed nothing but contempt for the environment, the neighbours, or the rule of law throughout this period, and operations were eventually ended by court order enforcement.  They will probably now file for bankruptcy, thereby weaseling out of their obligation to replace and landscape the overburden, which will therefore be paid for by the taxpayers, including the local residents.  It might be argued that, in closing it, the WAG was fulfilling it's proper function in enacting the will of the people.

 

A squiz along the northern edge of the South Wales coalfield will reveal massive scars from extensive opencast coal working and limestone quarrying, some of it intruding into the Bannau Brycheiniog National Park, and most of it clearly visible from within the park boundary.  The blight of coal spoil tips has been very largely greened over since the 70s, not always very well but at least an effort has been made.  These post-industrial eyesores are much bigger, though, and I suspect will not be on any government or local authority's priority list to deal with even if money were available to do so. 

 

The establishment are the establishment, and are laughing at us as has been said.  I can;t avoid the conclusion that they find (and have historically found) it even funnier when the peasants are Welsh...

 

 

[APOLLO]

How Green Was My Valley !!!

 

Or as we said in Wigan "How high was my slagheap" !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Or as they say in Yorkshire "Where there's muck there's brass"

 

You can't have industry 'bawt muck" the Widnesians once spluttered !!

 

 

Brit15

[Ozexpatriate]

17 hours ago, APOLLO said:

China want Taiwan, especially TSMC who make high end chips (using machines built in The Netherlands & ARM (British) technology, amongst many others. I believe the USA is building a huge high end chip plant in case Taiwan falls.

ARM creates intellectual property only - no actual hardware. Their IP is widely used by companies that design semiconductors - not necessarily semiconductor manufacturers. ASML (Netherlands) is the leading supplier of semiconductor manufacturing equipment to the manufacturers.

 

The US Chips Act should result in multiple wafer fabrication facilities being constructed.  TSMC is building one near Phoenix, Arizona. Samsung is building one near Austin, Texas. Intel committed to build a new one in Ohio.

[APOLLO]

5 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

ARM creates intellectual property only - no actual hardware. Their IP is widely used by companies that design semiconductors - not necessarily semiconductor manufacturers. ASML (Netherlands) is the leading supplier of semiconductor manufacturing equipment to the manufacturers.

 

The US Chips Act should result in multiple wafer fabrication facilities being constructed.  TSMC is building one near Phoenix, Arizona. Samsung is building one near Austin, Texas. Intel committed to build a new one in Ohio.

 

Good News. The USA needs to get industrial again. They have the resources, energy, knowledge and manpower.

 

But have they got the will ?

 

Brit15

[Mark Saunders]

For those of us old enough there was always great concern from politicians about the balance of trade but it’s never mentioned now!

 

The decline was covered using invisible earnings from financial dealings!

[Reorte]

6 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

ARM creates intellectual property only - no actual hardware. Their IP is widely used by companies that design semiconductors - not necessarily semiconductor manufacturers. ASML (Netherlands) is the leading supplier of semiconductor manufacturing equipment to the manufacturers.

Letting ARM get sold off abroad was another dark day for British industry, and that's the type of industry they keep saying they want. Personally I prefer the early days of ARM. The Archimedes series were some of the better computers I've used, still don't think the OS user interface has been bettered (that's from RISC OS 2 onwards, not the original Arthur OS).

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, APOLLO said:

How Green Was My Valley !!!

 

Or as we said in Wigan "How high was my slagheap" !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Or as they say in Yorkshire "Where there's muck there's brass"

 

You can't have industry 'bawt muck" the Widnesians once spluttered !!

 

 

Think you've posted that one before. What does the same view look like now though? I rather suspect that if you had that old one just without the smoke I'd much prefer that.

[Clearwater]

17 hours ago, admiles said:

 

We have a very easy and effective way to control the import (dumping) of "cheap" Chinese steel into the UK. Anti-dumping duties.  Widely in use already to increase the price of imported steel to the point it becomes unattractive to buyers.  Of course that also has the side effect of increasing the cost of steel products but I'm sure the average "Joe" won't mind paying a bit more to support British jobs....won't they?

 

Incidentally the "B" event has made it easier for "us" to implement such controls. Of course the EU also use Anti-dumping duties for the same reason.  

 

Trade Remedies Notice 2023/11: safeguard measure: tariff-rate quota on steel goods - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

fyi - current UK tariff position

[IWCR]

Yes  I  was  aware  of  the  problems  with  the  coal  mine  however  at  the  end  of  the  day  the  Welsh  Government  has  decided  it  wants  to  go  green  totally,  this  was  the  last  significant  mine,  there  is  now  no  large  scale  coal  mining  at  all,  it  and  the  jobs  are  gone.  Industries  which  need  the  coal  then  also  end.  Tata  have  announced  they  will  go  electric  (with  government  help)  but  this  is  a  large  reduction  in  workforce  and  there  is  nothing  now  tying  the  facility  to  this  site.  When  the  subsidies  dry  up  expect  total  closure,  it  is  cheaper  to  make  the  bulk  iron  and  steel  abroad  where  the ore  is  mined.

 

Pete

[Clearwater]

fwiw, my understanding is that most of the coke used at the steel mill is imported.  DfT Maritime Stats publish details of cargo going through ports and you can tie back to steel production given the ratio of ore to coke used in smelting:

 

 

[APOLLO]

26 minutes ago, IWCR said:

Yes  I  was  aware  of  the  problems  with  the  coal  mine  however  at  the  end  of  the  day  the  Welsh  Government  has  decided  it  wants  to  go  green  totally,  this  was  the  last  significant  mine,  there  is  now  no  large  scale  coal  mining  at  all,  it  and  the  jobs  are  gone.  Industries  which  need  the  coal  then  also  end.  Tata  have  announced  they  will  go  electric  (with  government  help)  but  this  is  a  large  reduction  in  workforce  and  there  is  nothing  now  tying  the  facility  to  this  site.  When  the  subsidies  dry  up  expect  total  closure,  it  is  cheaper  to  make  the  bulk  iron  and  steel  abroad  where  the ore  is  mined.

 

Pete

 

Sad but that's where we are at.

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Think you've posted that one before. What does the same view look like now though? I rather suspect that if you had that old one just without the smoke I'd much prefer that.

 

Widnes certainly has changed, and like everywhere continues to do so.

 

As a gas engineer on emergency call my area was Warrington, Widnes, Runcorn, Frodsham and Helsby from around 1975 to 2003 (apart from a 4 year spell Wigan & St Helens). All had their varying industries, some old and dying, some new, a lot now gone.

 

Widnes though was where most "action" was, old odd size cast iron mains leaking and breaking, tons of industry both old and new. Chemical works that really did "get up your nose" - Many gas escapes I attended were not "our" gas, but we had to attend and investigate, 24/7. Searching for the errant factories emissions etc was fun (not), I could tell many tales. It was not like the photo I posted though, well, not quite !!

 

Over my time I saw the decline of the old and some new industry also including some newly built huge plants. BOC had a new state of the art air liquefaction plant alongside the viaduct, now sadly gone. (Olivias BOC tank wagons) Most of the 1970's new plants have also long gone. USAC (United Sulphuric Acid Co) was a large smelly, hazardous place, now gone (Anhydrite trains Long Meg to Widnes). Fiddlers Ferry power station (built early 70's) also, the cooling towers were recently demolished (MGR trains over Woodhead and from Lancashire collieries - all gone).

 

My home town Wigan lost coal iron & cotton slowly from the 20's, as a youth I saw the last of it. All long gone. Warrington and St Helens can tell similar stories. 

 

Anyway, what is Widnes like today ? I've not been for quite a few years. I would say "Breathable" !!!!!!

 

 

View over the West Bank (no not THAT one !!) - Note Fiddlers Ferry power station - now gone. This is the general area (I think) in the smoke photo, looking in the other direction. 

 

 

I wonder why (!!) ?

 

 

Brit15

[Hroth]

The main question is, what the hell was he doing in Widnes?

 

[Reorte]

41 minutes ago, Hroth said:

The main question is, what the hell was he doing in Widnes?

 

If he was at the station presumably trying to get out of it ASAP.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

The main question is, what the hell was he doing in Widnes?

 

 

38 minutes ago, Reorte said:

If he was at the station presumably trying to get out of it ASAP.

Well according to the first verse, because Widnes women were easy - he was on a tour of one night stands.

[admiles]

3 hours ago, Clearwater said:

 

Trade Remedies Notice 2023/11: safeguard measure: tariff-rate quota on steel goods - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

fyi - current UK tariff position

 

Yes, I'm aware of tariff quotas. I'm involved with the import of steel from various parts of the world. Quotas aren't quite the same thing as anti-dumping duties but obviously can also be used to control the amount of a certain product being imported.