Freight Train Formations WCML early 80's

[AMac]

Hi,

I'm (still) in the process of starting a layout. It's loosely based on Lancaster Station set in very late 70's to early 80's with the main focus being around '81/82. I have some idea of passenger trains but would like some help/advice on freight trains and formations. Rightly or wrongly, I've thought of the following;

1. MGR (too late to change mind on this one - I have a 56 on it's way with 15 HAA's already in my box RTG)
2. Freightliner (again, I have already bought 2 pr of FGA outers plus 3 inners. Going to reduce to 2 blocks of 4 rather than in 5's due to fiddle/storage yard length)
3. Parcels train (I have a CCT, 2 BG's, 1 x GUV but the Property Board version - too late?, thinking about others - just more GUV's? PMV's? Siphon G's?)
4. Engineer's/P-way (I have 5 Seacows - thought about adding some Catfish and/or a Shark/Oyster)
5. Some smaller train of mixed freight? ( I have a couple of vanwides as a starter. Also a 12T pipe wagon - no thought there)
6. 12 -15 small petroleum tankers? (I have none of these yet)

 

I saw a reference to David Ratcliffe's "Freight-Train Formations" but that is a hard book to find. I'm from NZ and my knowledge is limited to online/youtube, books I can find and, of course, the help through the RMWeb forums which I've found incredibly helpful.

 

I'm asking a lot of questions I know! Any help on any one of the topics would be greatly appreciated including suggestions of other freight traffic .

For reference my layout will be 5.4m long - essentially an oval. The station will be about 2/3's the scale size of Lancaster with only 1 through line (down line)

[Wheatley]

Somewhere in a shoebox I've got some poor photos taken at Winwick Junction about 1982. One of them is of a PWay train, pretty sure Dogfish and Catfish were the main components. There seemed to be some sort of rule amongst engineers that two wagons of exactly the same type should not be marshalled next to each other in a ballast train.  

[Titan]

One freight I would include is a speedlink service.  Often a wide variety of wagons in one train, could even be electrically hauled by something like a class 85. Would be ideal for your smaller mixed freight - in the real world could be as short as one wagon!

[Taigatrommel]

I strongly associate steel traffic with the northern WCML, especially coils on BAAs (Bachmann) and BBAs (Cavalex).  Trains could be 10 wagons of fewer, often with double headed 86/87s.
 

[Mol_PMB]

That part of the WCML was and still is a key freight artery with a wide variety of traffic.

 

At Carnforth north of Lancaster the Cumbrian Coast line branches off, so there was and still is nuclear flask traffic to Sellafield. Previously that line also served Workington steelworks which at the time had the UK's main rail rolling mill. So trains of new rails would be legitimate.

 

The Speedlink train is a very good shout, and probably a more likely place to see the TTA tankers than in a train of their own? Need to think about whether each of your trains is vac-braked or air-braked and marshal them accordingly.

[nigb55009]

MGR traffic would have originated between Corkicle and Maryport on the Cumbrian Coast. At the time you intend to portray these would have been hauled by class 47s. Occasionally other classes would be used for part of the journey, a class 47 would be provided before the train left Warrington on the final leg of the journey to Fiddlers Ferry. 

Class 56s appeared in 1985, after the miner's strike. Coal for Fiddlers Ferry was moved from Knockshinnoch, on the G&SW mainline. The 56s worked between Carlisle Yard and Fiddlers Ferry. Drivers at Springs Branch were trained on 56s for this work, so it was not unusual to see pairs of class 20s substitutions due to a shortage of suitably trained drivers or even class 56s.

On at least one occasion a class 56 worked through to the colliery. The Springs Branch crew being conducted over the route. 

Edited February 7 by nigb55009
Added info.

[Jim Martin]

As an alternative to the David Ratcliffe book (which is worth having, if you can get hold of it), you could try this: https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5542/source/specoffweb. It's out of stock at that website, but you may be able to find a copy online. As a guide to the sort of subjects covered, see this thread: 

Note that for reasons that probably make sense to the guys behind Rail Express, the magazine ("REx") and the modelling section which has been included in every single issue for years and years (sometimes abbreviated to "REM") have separate number series, so REM144 would not be in REx144. Go figure.

 

The articles in Rail Express cover the whole country over a broad span of time, so I'd doubt that any one article would contain more than one or two formations relevant to you; but most of them would contain something.

 

Jim

[Gilbert]

A bit late but it may help.

A lot of content still feels familar from my occasional day at Warrington in early 1980s..

Chris

 

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

That part of the WCML was and still is a key freight artery with a wide variety of traffic.

 

At Carnforth north of Lancaster the Cumbrian Coast line branches off, so there was and still is nuclear flask traffic to Sellafield. Previously that line also served Workington steelworks which at the time had the UK's main rail rolling mill. So trains of new rails would be legitimate.

 

The Speedlink train is a very good shout, and probably a more likely place to see the TTA tankers than in a train of their own? Need to think about whether each of your trains is vac-braked or air-braked and marshal them accordingly.

Don't forget chemical traffic to and from Whitehaven. Some very colourful wagons on that...

[stivesnick]

10 hours ago, Titan said:

One freight I would include is a speedlink service.  Often a wide variety of wagons in one train, could even be electrically hauled by something like a class 85. Would be ideal for your smaller mixed freight - in the real world could be as short as one wagon!

 

Freight Only Vol 1 by Michael Rhodes and Paul Shannon is a good source of information about freight trains in the later part of the 19080's

 

There were 2 lots of speedlink services; the anglo-scottish route and also around the Cumbria coast to Workington. 

 

The Scottish services would include a wide range of air-braked wagons, open wagons, vans, steel carriers, tank cars and china clay. Most would have electric locos - Class 81-86

 

The Workington train (class 47 hauled) was mainly steel from Workington, household coal to Barrow and chemicals from Corkickle (bright green tanks) and the caustic soda to the Glaxo plant at Ulverston and oil to the Ulverston terminal.

 

There were a number of quarries around Shap on the WCML that would have sent trainloads of products. The book does not have any pictures of these trains - but likley to be vacumm braked hoppers. Can someone confirm?

 

Hope this helps 

 

Nick 

 

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 02:59, Jim Martin said:

As an alternative to the David Ratcliffe book (which is worth having, if you can get hold of it), you could try this: https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5542/source/specoffweb. It's out of stock at that website, but you may be able to find a copy online. As a guide to the sort of subjects covered, see this thread: 

Note that for reasons that probably make sense to the guys behind Rail Express, the magazine ("REx") and the modelling section which has been included in every single issue for years and years (sometimes abbreviated to "REM") have separate number series, so REM144 would not be in REx144. Go figure.

 

The articles in Rail Express cover the whole country over a broad span of time, so I'd doubt that any one article would contain more than one or two formations relevant to you; but most of them would contain something.

 

Jim

Hi Jim,

 

many thanks for the links. Yes, I had found the "Train Formations Handbook" and already bought an electronic version through PocketMags. I agree - it has some really interesting train types. One includes some nuclear flask "Flatrol" wagons with 6 or 4 wheel plate bogies depending on the type. From my reading and very quick check, the nuclear flasks around my time period appears to be the flatrols that aren't availalbe at RTR (or maybe even kitset?). Maybe something to look at some scratch build if I get that far!

I also found the thread you linked which got me onto the Train Formations book. You can also by some of the REx mags online; backissues as far back as REx 176 though pocketMags (which are really cheap) but before that I've found them only via "ClassicMacazines.co.uk" Not too bad but still £5.25 each.

Edited February 9 by AMac
fixed a typo

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 01:20, Taigatrommel said:

I strongly associate steel traffic with the northern WCML, especially coils on BAAs (Bachmann) and BBAs (Cavalex).  Trains could be 10 wagons of fewer, often with double headed 86/87s.
 

Hi Taigatromel,

 

steel sounds like an option. I'll look into that. Would you get a mix of BAA's and BBA's?

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 00:57, Titan said:

One freight I would include is a speedlink service.  Often a wide variety of wagons in one train, could even be electrically hauled by something like a class 85. Would be ideal for your smaller mixed freight - in the real world could be as short as one wagon!

Hi Titan - thanks I had wondered about some VBA's then went away from that idea but perhaps shouldn't have!

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 01:20, Mol_PMB said:

That part of the WCML was and still is a key freight artery with a wide variety of traffic.

 

At Carnforth north of Lancaster the Cumbrian Coast line branches off, so there was and still is nuclear flask traffic to Sellafield. Previously that line also served Workington steelworks which at the time had the UK's main rail rolling mill. So trains of new rails would be legitimate.

 

The Speedlink train is a very good shout, and probably a more likely place to see the TTA tankers than in a train of their own? Need to think about whether each of your trains is vac-braked or air-braked and marshal them accordingly.

Yes, the Nuclear flask traffic sounds interesting. I dismissed that purely on the basis of the Bachmann wagons (and now the accuscales ones) were just a bit late for me. However after looking at the Train formations book plus your comment.

I've also got the online version of "Modelling British Railways - Engineers Wagons" by Hornby Magazine and either in that or one of the P-Way threads on this site refers to being careful with the wagons/trains being vac or air-braked  (or fitted). I need to work my way through that as well.

 

[Mark Forrest]

A variation on your Freightliner flats would be the Fletliner brick train, as seen here:

 

edit to add, sorry just re-read your post and see you are looking at Lancaster area, I think the Fletliner only went as far as Trafford Park

 

[AMac]

Hi all,

 

many thanks for all the advice and info so far. Much appreciated!  

 

@nigb55009 - thanks for the info on the Class 56's. Good to know when they were used around my location. I guess that will be another instance where I invoke Rule 1!

 

Gilbert thanks for the youtube link - great to have another video of train services.

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 11:44, stivesnick said:

...

There were a number of quarries around Shap on the WCML that would have sent trainloads of products. The book does not have any pictures of these trains - but likley to be vacumm braked hoppers. Can someone confirm?

 

Hope this helps 

 

Nick 

 

Thanks Nick - some more food for thought.

[AMac]

On 08/02/2024 at 05:24, Fat Controller said:

Don't forget chemical traffic to and from Whitehaven. Some very colourful wagons on that...

Thanks - showing more ignorance here but do the chemical wagons come in hopper and tank form? I recall seeing examples of ICI wagons in both forms.

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, AMac said:

Thanks - showing more ignorance here but do the chemical wagons come in hopper and tank form? I recall seeing examples of ICI wagons in both forms.

Have a search for 'Corkickle Brake' 

 

Plenty of different colours here:

 

Edited February 9 by Mol_PMB

[Padishar Creel]

Hallo,

Only one freight service in this clip, tankers with a ferry wagon, hope it gives you some Inspiration

 

es grüßt

pc 

https://youtu.be/YXWs5nrw0Vg?si=T4ngG0_ceORVl6DI

[Gilbert]

You can't go wrong with a few vee-tanks...please ignore the inappropriate motive power...I can't leave my fellow operators alone for two seconds...

Edited February 9 by Gilbert

[nigb55009]

Rule 1 sounds good to me. In 1990 the 47s were replaced by class 60s on the Cumbrian MGR services. I`m fairly certain 56s didn`t get to 

that area until after privatisation. Have a look on Flickr at Dave McDigital, there is an album dedicated to Cumbrian coal trains. It also

shows class 25 and 40 working MGR trains around the areas I mentioned above.

The class 47 hauled MGR trains had an air-braked brake van on the rear for the propelling movement between Walton Old Jn and Arpley

Jn at Warrington.

[Taigatrommel]

10 hours ago, AMac said:

Hi Taigatromel,

 

steel sounds like an option. I'll look into that. Would you get a mix of BAA's and BBA's?

 

I've been having a look at flickr as I enjoy having something to research!
 

 

This is 1982, I can only see BBAs, but only the first three wagons are visble.
 

1990 and it's a mix.  From searches in general, I think BBAs were the more common in the early 80s.  This 1984 shot is just BBAs as far as I can see...
 

 

[eastwestdivide]

I might have some detailed notes and the odd photo from some days out at Warrington, early 1980s. Seem to recall a Mossend-Severn Tunnel  Junction Speedlink service that swapped from electric to diesel, and carried a wide variety of air-braked freight. Should I have a rummage?

Edited February 9 by eastwestdivide

[AMac]

26 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

I might have some detailed notes and the odd photo from some days out at Warrington, early 1980s. Seem to recall a Mossend-Severn Tunnel  Junction Speedlink service that swapped from electric to diesel, and carried a wide variety of air-braked freight. Should I have a rummage?

That would be great if you could. I'll definitely be building up a speedlink freight service now so any notes would be really useful.