Peterborough North

[great northern]

Well, we live and learn!  Have seen pictures of Bletchley ones at Cambridge, but don't remember seeing any pictures of Standard 4 4-6-0s at Peterborough.  Or perhaps I have, and I've forgotten, which is more likely!

Vic Fincham pointed his camera at them quite a lot, Steve. Here is one example, copyright Andrew C Ingram.

[great northern]

I am pondering. That will be followed by a bit of experimenting. While all that is occurring, a couple more images.

A3 now about to come to a halt, and be passed by a 9F on coal empties.

Big beasties, 9Fs. I think I'd be taking a couple of steps backwards, if I were the cameraman. Hang on though...I am. That pole is a bit of a nuisance sometimes.

[great northern]

I have pondered, and I have, briefly, experimented. This was caused by yet another browse through my copy of British Railways Steaming  Through Peterborough, and paying proper attention to scenes like this. I am not showing the full image for copyright reasons.

This is all about the signals, which are to say the least, not white. It would I think be logical that, whilst the mechanical aspects would have been rigorously maintained, keeping them clean would have been low priority, and in practice almost impossible. Should I then dirty mine up, I wondered, if so how much, and what effect would doing it have on my photoshopping efforts? Being cautious by nature, I started by just applying weathering powder, or rather trying to do so. It didn't stick very well.

I can't really see which ones I worked on, so I doubt you will either. I think something rather more drastic and permanent would be required to achieve the soot encrusted look that the prototype picture suggests, but is it going to look right in miniature?  I'd welcome your views before I commit myself to something I may not be able to undo.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

I have pondered, and I have, briefly, experimented. This was caused by yet another browse through my copy of British Railways Steaming  Through Peterborough, and paying proper attention to scenes like this. I am not showing the full image for copyright reasons.

001 (1177x757).jpg

This is all about the signals, which are to say the least, not white. It would I think be logical that, whilst the mechanical aspects would have been rigorously maintained, keeping them clean would have been low priority, and in practice almost impossible. Should I then dirty mine up, I wondered, if so how much, and what effect would doing it have on my photoshopping efforts? Being cautious by nature, I started by just applying weathering powder, or rather trying to do so. It didn't stick very well.

J6 test.JPG

I can't really see which ones I worked on, so I doubt you will either. I think something rather more drastic and permanent would be required to achieve the soot encrusted look that the prototype picture suggests, but is it going to look right in miniature?  I'd welcome your views before I commit myself to something I may not be able to undo.

Is it possible that you could weather some of them with photoshop in one of your pics? You could then see what it looked like in a proper view. Next, if you have a spare signal lying about, as we all do (just ask and I'll bring it down), you could then have a play with weathering the actual thing, plonk it on the layout, have a look, take a pic, have another look at the pic and Robert is happy or clean it off and either:

start again;

don't bother yet;

don't bother at all;

get someone else to experiment;

and so on.

Philth.

[Northroader]

Get a black pastel chalk from an art shop, rub it on emery paper to make powder, sprinkle the powder over the signal, then rub it round with a dry brush. If you don't like it, it will wash off.

[Mallard60022]

You could, of course, create the scene where there are a couple of S& TD Engineers repainting one of the signals away from the mains. Then when some clever ar$e says "Gilbert, your layout is so ####### brilliant, however the signals are far too clean for the era!", you can respond with, ".......... #### ###, see those S &TD Engineers? Well, they are working through a programme of signal refurbishment and repainting, just in time for the resignalling programme to commence". 

A G Bell.

[31A]

In pictures from steam days, signal posts (on the LNER at any rate) often look very dark if not almost black, to the extent that I've sometimes wondered whether at one time they actually WERE painted dark grey (e.g. as a WW2 economy measure)?  Or is it a trick of the light, as they are usually photographed against a light sky background?  Perhaps we paint them white as we're conditioned by convention into thinking that they should be white?

 

I've just had a look at a few colour pictures to see whether signals look different in those compared to black & white.  I picked at random "On Great Northern Lines" (Derek Huntriss, Ian Allan, 1994).  The pages unfortunately are not numbered, but towards the front there's a picture of 60028 arriving in Peterborough with an up goods; there's a bracket with two dolls which does look a very dark grey colour (although could be a concrete post) and a three-doll bracket (more modern welded construction) where white paint is clearly visible on the main post and the dolls.  Then towards the back of the book there's a picture of 60108 setting off from Leeds Central past the platform starting signals, which appear to be a uniform dark colour, almost black, with no sign of any white paint at all, except on the arms!

[great northern]

Is it possible that you could weather some of them with photoshop in one of your pics? You could then see what it looked like in a proper view. Next, if you have a spare signal lying about, as we all do (just ask and I'll bring it down), you could then have a play with weathering the actual thing, plonk it on the layout, have a look, take a pic, have another look at the pic and Robert is happy or clean it off and either:

start again;

don't bother yet;

don't bother at all;

get someone else to experiment;

and so on.

Philth.

 I'm sure it could be done with Photoshop, Phil, but as with many other things, that is beyond me. However, your next suggestion is feasible, as I do have a spare signal lying about, and I have also remembered that I can use the same technique as I now do for weathering stock, using Decalfix, which allows me to expunge my mistakes. I shall do that, but not yet, as I'm entitled to a sit down and a cup of tea after completing my afternoon walk, 3 miles in 45 minutes.

[great northern]

In pictures from steam days, signal posts (on the LNER at any rate) often look very dark if not almost black, to the extent that I've sometimes wondered whether at one time they actually WERE painted dark grey (e.g. as a WW2 economy measure)?  Or is it a trick of the light, as they are usually photographed against a light sky background?  Perhaps we paint them white as we're conditioned by convention into thinking that they should be white?

 

I've just had a look at a few colour pictures to see whether signals look different in those compared to black & white.  I picked at random "On Great Northern Lines" (Derek Huntriss, Ian Allan, 1994).  The pages unfortunately are not numbered, but towards the front there's a picture of 60028 arriving in Peterborough with an up goods; there's a bracket with two dolls which does look a very dark grey colour (although could be a concrete post) and a three-doll bracket (more modern welded construction) where white paint is clearly visible on the main post and the dolls.  Then towards the back of the book there's a picture of 60108 setting off from Leeds Central past the platform starting signals, which appear to be a uniform dark colour, almost black, with no sign of any white paint at all, except on the arms!

Thanks Steve. As usual it hadn't occurred to me to look at colour photos. I have the Huntriss book, and will peruse it while drinking the cup of tea referred to in my post to Phil, above.

[Market65]

Hello, Gilbert. As I think you know, the steam railway was so dirty and sooty. Everything seemed to be coated in soot and filth. I don't think you can overdo the weathering! This is something I like doing, it really brings the models to life whether they are signals, steam locos or buildings. Please photo that signal once it is finished, I'm sure it will look really good and lifelike.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

[The Stationmaster]

The posts and, in particular, brackets would weather but not necessarily the arms - and definitely not the spectacles as the Lampie would give them a wipe over to keep them clean.

[great northern]

The posts and, in particular, brackets would weather but not necessarily the arms - and definitely not the spectacles as the Lampie would give them a wipe over to keep them clean.

Thanks Mike, I have been working on the basis that the parts that had to be clearly visible, and easy to sight, would have been cleaned regularly. I've found enough photos now to suggest that even posts got a clean now and then, though most seem to have been filthy, but it is clear that anything which had locomotive exhaust hitting it directly would have been soot encrusted all the time. I have so many brackets at the North end, I think I'm safe to treat them accordingly.

 

I've noted in particular that posts always seem to be silhouetted against the sky, whereas my white ones tend to blend in with it, so that's another good indication, I think.

[great northern]

The signals will be blackened, in due course. None feature on the next couple of images though.

Something like this for the header photo for the article? What do you think?

Nearly sharp this time.

[Metropolitan H]

Assuming that signal posts were painted white with a lead based paint, they would quickly discolour to a mucky grey colour - in the same way that coach roofs did - as the sulphurous smoke reacts with the paint and rain and attacks the paint.

 

It is only with the general use of modern pigments in the late 1950s - 1960s that true "Brilliant white" became common - before the lead based paint never stayed white for long.

 

Regards

Chris H               

[great northern]

Assuming that signal posts were painted white with a lead based paint, they would quickly discolour to a mucky grey colour - in the same way that coach roofs did - as the sulphurous smoke reacts with the paint and rain and attacks the paint.

 

It is only with the general use of modern pigments in the late 1950s - 1960s that true "Brilliant white" became common - before the lead based paint never stayed white for long.

 

Regards

Chris H               

I hadn't thought of that at all. Thanks very much, it is another important element, and it helps with my decision. Actually I've looked at some slightly later pictures since I last posted, and everything is much less grimy, and the posts and arms are very bright and clean. Perhaps a combination of a policy decision to remove the soot now that it isn't going to be immediately replaced, and better paint technology?

[great northern]

Time for another photo or two. I tried some more angles with a train in the platform and another passing.

I'm still struggling with the loss of sharpness caused by stopping right down to penetrate the gloom under the roof.

This one was very experimental. I tried to get the camera where a person standing on the edge of the platform right down the end would be, and then cropped it heavily. I think I forgot to adjust the exposure though.

[Mallard60022]

I hadn't thought of that at all. Thanks very much, it is another important element, and it helps with my decision. Actually I've looked at some slightly later pictures since I last posted, and everything is much less grimy, and the posts and arms are very bright and clean. Perhaps a combination of a policy decision to remove the soot now that it isn't going to be immediately replaced, and better paint technology?

There you go, I sort of said that is what you could say, except your modified version is glass half full philosophy.

Sandy Downer.

[mikemeg]

Gilbert,

 

You ask what sort of content people would wish to read about Peterborough North; the model?

 

It seems to me that what you have created is not so much a model railway but a model of a railway. A representation of a railway just as it was on a day in 1958.

 

Perhaps, therefore, what people might wish to read is how is that distinction achieved, as you have achieved it.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[great northern]

There you go, I sort of said that is what you could say, except your modified version is glass half full philosophy.

Sandy Downer.

 You were right first time Phil. It was all replaced shortly afterwards.

[great northern]

Today's golf will not take place, as we found ourselves a group of two, in a competition for groups of four. As the rules stipulate three out of four to count on holes 7-12, and all four on holes 13-18, there seemed little chance of being competitive. A quick glance at the dark clouds gathering ominously to the West, and we hastily withdrew. This of course frees up time for modelling, and/or taking photos. Here is another image to celebrate.

Just a little Sentinel in its natural habitat. Time for lunch, after which I will decide what to do. A bit of dirty signalling?

[great northern]

First part of experiment complete.

One signal given a wash of grey, and the whole thing a perfunctory bit of photoshopping. I'll have to be careful, as this one is right in line with the window, and gets a lot more light than those further down. I think it is an improvement, but should be darker still, but I really would appreciate your views on this, as it needs to be right.

[gwrrob]

Lovely signals Gilbert, can you tell me their provenance please.

[great northern]

Lovely signals Gilbert, can you tell me their provenance please.

All of them at this end were built by Ken Gibbons, Rob. One or two were on the loft layout, but most were bespoke built for PN. They were scrathbuilt using MSE parts.

[Market65]

The signal is looking better, but it really does need to be darker. Try it out on that spare signal which you found - you can mess things up on that without spoiling the signals on the layout.

 

With warmest regards,

 

Rob.

[great northern]

The signal is looking better, but it really does need to be darker. Try it out on that spare signal which you found - you can mess things up on that without spoiling the signals on the layout.

 

With warmest regards,

 

Rob.

I'm afraid the spare signal isn't much use Rob. It is a four arm wooden post shunting thingy, and so nothing like what I actually have to deal with. Never mind, I will increase the darkness of the wash I prepared, and try again tomorrow.

Edited October 1, 2016 by great northern