Peterborough North

[great northern]

A dark and dismal day, spent with head in books most of the time. In the course of wide ranging recollections yesterday, Tony and I got on to the subject of the motive power of West Riding trains. Both of us recollect how common the Copley Hill A1s were, and that we used to see most of them on most of our spotting trips, and yet Peter Coster says in his books of the Great Northern that they only had three daily diagrams to London. So, I've been trawling through all the sources I have, as I find it hard to believe that a shed with ten very modern express locos would only have a use for a third of them on a normal weekday.

 

I've established that in the winter of 1957 the West Riding duties were split between 34A 36A and 56C. KX supplied three locos, Doncaster two, and Copley Hill four. That still leaves more than half of the Copley Hill stud standing idle, and we can't think of any other duties they might have had. My only conclusion is that we must have been spotting almost exclusively on Saturdays, but I know Tony haunted Retford station almost daily during weekly summer holidays, and I remember plenty of mid week trips in school holidays too.

 

There were some trains that ran on certain days only, and a few that ran as required, so that may have provided a bit more work, but still would have left some standing idle. As for Saturdays, yes there were many more trains, but Tony and I both recall that a lot of them were worked by V2s, and there were instances of KX having to use 9Fs on express duties. What were those other A1s doing? They can't all have been in works or having a boiler washout.

 

All that may have been of some interest to some people, but I'll now get on with tonight's photos, which have nothing to do with Copley Hill A1s. It's that K3 again first.

and a close up of 61643 still waiting in the bay.

[thegreenhowards]

A dark and dismal day, spent with head in books most of the time. In the course of wide ranging recollections yesterday, Tony and I got on to the subject of the motive power of West Riding trains. Both of us recollect how common the Copley Hill A1s were, and that we used to see most of them on most of our spotting trips, and yet Peter Coster says in his books of the Great Northern that they only had three daily diagrams to London. So, I've been trawling through all the sources I have, as I find it hard to believe that a shed with ten very modern express locos would only have a use for a third of them on a normal weekday.

 

I've established that in the winter of 1957 the West Riding duties were split between 34A 36A and 56C. KX supplied three locos, Doncaster two, and Copley Hill four. That still leaves more than half of the Copley Hill stud standing idle, and we can't think of any other duties they might have had. My only conclusion is that we must have been spotting almost exclusively on Saturdays, but I know Tony haunted Retford station almost daily during weekly summer holidays, and I remember plenty of mid week trips in school holidays too.

 

There were some trains that ran on certain days only, and a few that ran as required, so that may have provided a bit more work, but still would have left some standing idle. As for Saturdays, yes there were many more trains, but Tony and I both recall that a lot of them were worked by V2s, and there were instances of KX having to use 9Fs on express duties. What were those other A1s doing? They can't all have been in works or having a boiler washout.

 

All that may have been of some interest to some people, but I'll now get on with tonight's photos, which have nothing to do with Copley Hill A1s. It's that K3 again first.

3 K3 2.JPG

and a close up of 61643 still waiting in the bay.

9 1643 in bay.JPG

Gilbert,

 

Great shots again...I do love a K3!

 

I’m always impressed by your knowledge of which loco worked each train. The carriage stock is relatively easy with Robert Carroll’s excellent carriage workings (although it still takes a lot of work digesting them), but I don’t know of any similar source of loco allocations. Do you do it all from memory (where’re I’m at a significant disadvantage being -6 in 1958!) or is there some reference material that I’m not aware of?

 

I tend to base mine on photos, but as most of these were taken at the weekend, they’re not necessarily the most reliable source for typical weekday operation.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[great northern]

Gilbert,

 

Great shots again...I do love a K3!

 

I’m always impressed by your knowledge of which loco worked each train. The carriage stock is relatively easy with Robert Carroll’s excellent carriage workings (although it still takes a lot of work digesting them), but I don’t know of any similar source of loco allocations. Do you do it all from memory (where’re I’m at a significant disadvantage being -6 in 1958!) or is there some reference material that I’m not aware of?

 

I tend to base mine on photos, but as most of these were taken at the weekend, they’re not necessarily the most reliable source for typical weekday operation.

 

Regards

 

Andy

I work on what I can pick up from books. Railway Observer and Trains Illustrated sometimes have some details, and then there are the works of Peter Townend and Peter Coster too, plus some captions to contemporary photos, though those need to be treated with caution. For this last bit of research I also used an Express publications book about workings at Leeds Central in winter 1957. I'm aware that the information that group give isn't always correct, but I've been able to cross check most of it with other sources. Having said that, there is an awful lot which I just don't know, so I then try to work out diagrams which would be realistic.

 

Of course we also need to bear in mind that what the books say often didn't happen in practice, which applies to carriage formations as well. TW and I are now more or less agreed, I think, that as you say most photos were taken on Saturdays, and if in colour are often 1962/3, when steam was much more likely to be seen on reliefs and SO trains.

[great northern]

The arrival of the Edinburgh-Colchester reveals that Gateshead have turned out their only A2 this morning.

 

Our other man also recorded the stock behind the K3, knowing that this long standing train is due to be withdrawn shortly.

[trw1089]

Those Copley Hill A1s are quite perplexing Gilbert, I just can’t understand how so many big engines were needed from the diagram. I also wonder if that’s why so many pacifics are shown at the head of 3 and 4 coach Donny stoppers.

 

Love the K3 shots, they are such beefy engines, but you can’t beat a B17...

 

Cheers

Tony

Edited November 21, 2018 by trw1089

[jazzer]

I have never posted on this tread before but I have been a long time follower and love the pictures. With regard to the pictures with nothing happening , don't apologise for these because from my spotting days I remember that quite often there was nothing happening more often than something was happening. I think when we run things to a sequence instead of a timetable we tend to forget that the frequency of trains in the late steam/ early diesel era was far less than it is today and even at KX there were long spells where nothing much seemed to be going on. For me at at least It's nice (and for that matter prototypical ) to see pictures of a quiet station where we can drink in the atmosphere rather than focus on the trains.

 

With regard to Saturday services and the absence of A1's, in Steam Worlds interview with Peter Townend in April he said that Summer Saturday's were so busy they had to borrow V2's ( goodness knows wher from) and all depot work was suspended to provide maximum power. The tightest time was before 2pm when the last available locomotive had left the shed and before any of the lodge turns had come back. Hence the need to occasionally use a 9F because there were no other tender engines available except a WD. This, of course doesn't answer your question about what happened to all the A1's but I think it brings into sharp perspective just how busy and how stretched the locomotive situation was. I don't know where the A1's were but it seems likely they were somewhere, not on boiler washouts. Not sure if KX actually had any A1's in 1958. Weren't they nearly all A3's and A4's by that date ?

Edited November 21, 2018 by jazzer

[landscapes]

The arrival of the Edinburgh-Colchester reveals that Gateshead have turned out their only A2 this morning.

10 538 1.JPG

 

Our other man also recorded the stock behind the K3, knowing that this long standing train is due to be withdrawn shortly.

4 7.35 1.JPG5 7.35 2.JPG6 7.35 3.JPG7 7.35 4.JPG8 7.35 5.JPG

 

 

Hi Gilbert

 

Lovely head-on photo of A2 60538.

 

David

[Mallard60022]

G, here is the link to the Siphon Kit thread.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137824-br-gwr-siphon-g-diagram-o33-in-4mm-scale/

 

......and was it Liquid Paraffin you mentioned today about that soaking?  

 

Phil

Edited November 21, 2018 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

Those Copley Hill A1s are quite perplexing Gilbert, I just can’t understand how so many big engines were needed from the diagram. I also wonder if that’s why so many pacifics are shown at the head of 3 and 4 coach Donny stoppers.

 

Love the K3 shots, they are such beefy engines, but you can’t beat a B17...

 

Cheers

Tony

 I still haven't figured out the numbers Tony, but I'm getting more inclined to believe that it was the same sort of situation as existed with coaching stock, namely that there was enough to deal with short periods of peak demand, even if some locos and stock were underused the rest of the time. I've identified four more Down trains from KX, 1010 MO 1250 Q, 1308 MF0 and 1810 FO. Locos would be needed for them, and even more for summer saturdays and bank holidays. It was a different world back then, of course.

 

Those four coach stoppers were, I believe, either running in turns or took place into the 60s when there was far less work for steam.

[great northern]

G, here is the link to the Siphon Kit thread.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137824-br-gwr-siphon-g-diagram-o33-in-4mm-scale/

 

......and was it Liquid Paraffin you mentioned today about that soaking?  

 

Phil

Thanks for that Phil, I'll have a think about it. Liquid Paraffin it was, Oilatum is the name.

[great northern]

Phil the duck and 31A Steve visited today. Phil brought good ideas, as did Steve, who also brought the lovely buffet car which he showed on here a little while back. I'll take some photos of that, probably on Friday, and then it will replace another 'orrible Hornby thing. It's surprising and gratifying how much difference etched sides make to the standard offering.

[great northern]

Tonight we follow the progress of that A2, first as it is about to pass the waiting K3,

 

and then as it comes off its train, with the B17 ready to take over.

[great northern]

I have never posted on this tread before but I have been a long time follower and love the pictures. With regard to the pictures with nothing happening , don't apologise for these because from my spotting days I remember that quite often there was nothing happening more often than something was happening. I think when we run things to a sequence instead of a timetable we tend to forget that the frequency of trains in the late steam/ early diesel era was far less than it is today and even at KX there were long spells where nothing much seemed to be going on. For me at at least It's nice (and for that matter prototypical ) to see pictures of a quiet station where we can drink in the atmosphere rather than focus on the trains.

 

With regard to Saturday services and the absence of A1's, in Steam Worlds interview with Peter Townend in April he said that Summer Saturday's were so busy they had to borrow V2's ( goodness knows wher from) and all depot work was suspended to provide maximum power. The tightest time was before 2pm when the last available locomotive had left the shed and before any of the lodge turns had come back. Hence the need to occasionally use a 9F because there were no other tender engines available except a WD. This, of course doesn't answer your question about what happened to all the A1's but I think it brings into sharp perspective just how busy and how stretched the locomotive situation was. I don't know where the A1's were but it seems likely they were somewhere, not on boiler washouts. Not sure if KX actually had any A1's in 1958. Weren't they nearly all A3's and A4's by that date ?

 I think the impatience of youth probably made the gaps between trains seem even longer, but, yes, I remember the periods when nothing seemed to happen. As to V2s, the very large number at New England were really pool engines, and available to any shed in times of need. Top Shed also used to borrow some or all of the five March V2s at times of peak demand. There were still some A1s at KX in summer 58, and even a few in the top link. April 59 was when nearly all of the Eastern's A1s congregated at Doncaster.

[great northern]

It would seem that B17s have a magnetic attraction for the camera, as we see Champion Lodge yet again, this time starting away towards East Anglia.

 

As soon as she had gone, the stock for the 7.25 stopper to KX was brought in, and local V2 60875 is now beginning its journey.

[great northern]

Does this work, chaps?

 

The K3 is off towards Doncaster

That's a bit underwhelming too.

[31A]

Does this work, chaps?

 

 

 

Yes!

[Oldddudders]

Yes, and less so.

[manna]

Does this work, chaps?

14 875 2.JPG

 

The K3 is off towards Doncaster

15 K3 leaving.JPG

That's a bit underwhelming too.

G'Day Folks

 

S**t yeah, feel as if I'm standing in the yard.

 

manna

[great northern]

A nine o'clock meeting today, so a quick visit. We have another WD, dragging another load of coal.

 

and a Spital Bridge 4F slows for the first stop on its journey from East to Leicester.

[Mallard60022]

Does this work, chaps?

14 875 2.JPG

 

The K3 is off towards Doncaster

15 K3 leaving.JPG

That's a bit underwhelming too.

 

That V2 sitting like that reminds me of the possibility of finding one around the back of a small shed like Yeovil, when they were drafted as support onto the Superior main line to the west, when the Packets needed medical attention in the mid 50s. Classic shot.......

Frozen Duck

[great northern]

That V2 sitting like that reminds me of the possibility of finding one around the back of a small shed like Yeovil, when they were drafted as support onto the Superior main line to the west, when the Packets needed medical attention in the mid 50s. Classic shot.......

Frozen Duck

Superior?

[great northern]

First chance to photograph the lovely buffet car Steve delivered on Wednesday. "Just" etched sides on a Hornby donor, and a proper repaint, but it is transformed into something much more like the real thing.

It is supposed to go into a KX-Cleethorpes rake, but it really deserves something a bit more posh than that.

 

Edited as I didn't know what day of the week it is.

Edited November 23, 2018 by great northern

[bigwordsmith]

Superior?

 

 

I suspect he is using it in the Latin sense to mean 'higher'. Certailny although Brunel's Billiard table held the opportunity for consistent brisk timekeeping, apart from the hack out of Waterloo I didn't think the LSWR had anything to compete with Stoke Bank, or indeed Little Bytham.

 

I'll get my coat now shall I?

Edited November 23, 2018 by bigwordsmith

[Mallard60022]

I suspect he is using it in the Latin sense to mean 'higher'. Certailny although Brunel's Billiard table held the opportunity for consistent brisk timekeeping, apart from the hack out of Waterloo I didn't think the LSWR had anything to compete with Stoke Bank, or indeed Little Bytham.

 

I'll get my coat now shall I?       Only if you feel the benefit...........

 

Honiton incline going west was 8+ miles, bendy wendy too, with a good deal at 1/100/1/80; coming east it was short and steep. That's why it was a race track really, but not through Salisbury of course, and showed the WR a clean set of wheels and tail lamp most of the time. The GWR even tried building a shorter route, but it still didn't work time wise and often was covered in water.  

Salisbury on the LSWR was 'their Peterborough North'. In both instances, if those places had been sensible in layout, then the journey times could have been even better.

[Oldddudders]

Honiton incline going west was 8+ miles, bendy wendy too, with a good deal at 1/100/1/80; coming east it was short and steep. That's why it was a race track really, but not through Salisbury of course, and showed the WR a clean set of wheels and tail lamp most of the time. The GWR even tried building a shorter route, but it still didn't work time wise and often was covered in water.  

Salisbury on the LSWR was 'their Peterborough North'. In both instances, if those places had been sensible in layout, then the journey times could have been even better.

Water might have been an issue on the LSWR. No troughs, and Waterloo - Exeter on one tender-full sounds a long way.