Peterborough North

[great northern]

Haven't done a full count, as S15 has clearly won by a street.

 

I don't know enough about other southern companies to make more suggestions for those, so will return to safer ground. How about Mr Fowler of the Midland. Beg his pardon, Sir Henry. Did he manage to come up with any successful designs?  I know there were some which weren't.

[LNER4479]

Well, they had a troubled birth but I'd like to nominate the Royal Scots in original form. You could argue they weren't Fowler's design at all as the whole job was given to the North British Co. in a bit of a rush but they were under his tenure and therefore carry his name.

 

Once the inevitable teething problems were sorted out they did make an impact and signalled a change from the 'small engine' policy. By the early 1930s they were very definitely the LMS 'pin up' loco and were putting in prodigious performances on the heavy WCML trains. Their subsequent rebuilding made them even better ... but that's another story.

[drmditch]

Re: Sir Henry. As it happens I've just been re-reading E S Cox's 'Locomotive Panorama' - so not sure if Sir Henry actually had much to do with the design of any locomotives!

However, the best (and most forward looking) designed under his leadership would surely have to be the 2-6-4 tank locomotive.

I think the Royal Scot did contain some elements of the valve gear design from them as well.

 

[30368]

Sir Henry Fowler had, I suspect, a difficult task. Convincing all those ex Midland types that dominated the LMS that perhaps double heading with lots of small loco's was not a good idea for the future. Oddly, the same thing seemed to happen when LMS men dominated British Railways somewhat limiting BR Standard designs.

 

I nominate the Fowler 2-6-4 tanks as a good design that did its job well and was the prototype for all those Stainer and Fairburn tanks that followed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

PS I rather like the original Patriots too.

Edited March 31, 2021 by 30368

[30368]

PPS

I have always been surprised by the tendency for railway engineers and their loco works to retain a "loyalty" to their works at the expense of limiting good practice. This seemed to have survived the grouping and the formation of BR in my experience.

 

I remember back in the 1980's when HST Power Car bogie repairs were transferred from Derby Loco Works to Crewe Works. One of my tasks was to ensure that repair practices were transferred to maintain fleet availability. Whilst I understood the reluctance of Derby to help Crewe that had "stolen their work" at a time of great uncertainty, the terms used were interesting, stating that they would not help "those North Western b......s at Crewe" with the retort that those "Midland...... you get the idea I'm sure!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

[LNER4479]

Absolutely!

 

It's one of the main reasons why I'm such a fan of Mr Stanier. Aside from the classic loco types that bore his name, he seemed to be able to manage the 'people politics' and successfully restored the balance of power between Derby and Crewe such that everybody was (generally) pulling in the same direction.

 

As a wise old sage once said to me when I first started work: 'it's all about people'. Never a truer word spoken.

[DaveF]

The Fowler 2-6-4T.  It appears it did all that was required of it.

 

David

[Clive Mortimore]

Ah Sir Henry's locos, quite a list being as many were designed by others all he done was tinkered with them , if he done that.

 

We have the class 4 tank, wonderful design

We have the Royal Scots....Ummmm?

We have the rebuilt Claughtons Patriots often over looked by their big brothers the Scots

We have the Jcoko, know these days as the Jinty

We have the Superheated Large Goods, the 4F, much maligned but for a useless design they were one of the last remaining classes of 0-6-0 loco

We have the very economic Superheated class 2 passenger 4-4-0, the 483 class and its LMS companion  the 2P

 

 

The best class he had a hand in was the Belpaire boilered class 3 goods engines, reliable and handsome at the same time.

 

My vote today goes to the 3F.

[great northern]

OK, time for the last Tim goodie. This may look like another new A3, but it isn't. It does however have a new identity. Until recently this was 60056, but it had another of Hornby's less accurate attempts at green, so I never liked it much. I decided that it should become Pretty Polly. Inappropriate name it may be, but it was a very regular performer when I was watching trains. So, off I went to Yeadon, to find that it had a general from which it emerged on 1/3/57, when it would have still had the early crest. It is then recorded as being back to Doncaster for a casual heavy repair for three weeks,2/12/57 to 21/12/57. That left a slim possibility of a repaint and new crest having taken place.

 

Off we went in search of photographs. If you Google 60061, or go to the various websites which sell images, you will find loads of pictures.... all with double chimney, small deflectors or the German type. But for 1958? Nothing, until I found one shot at the South end of Grantham station, but not dated. The loco still had early crest, and Tim and I agreed that on the evidence we could see that the photo was almost certainly taken in late spring/early summer of 58. Given that the priority at Doncaster in the run up to Christmas would have been to get locos back out and in service as quickly as possible for the Christmas rush, I very much doubt there would have been a repaint, or even a simple change of emblem, so early it remains.

 

It actually went in for a general at the beginning of September, so it just fits my criteria, and at that time Grantham still kept their A3s in very good external condition even when a works visit was nigh, so that is how I asked Tim to do it. Here she is.

 

 

 

 

Another lovely piece of work, and a vast improvement on what I had before, so I am a happy bunny.

[LNER4479]

Ver nice

[Clive Mortimore]

You called

 

[LNER4479]

34 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

You called

 

Also ver nice - but I can't imagine it winning the St Leger in 1904

 

Helluva nag was old Pretty Polly, winning 22 of her 24 races then going on to found the classic winning Pretty Polly family as a broodmare. (according to Wikipedia)

 

Not that I'm particularly into horse-racing in any way - just interested to find out about these things in case I ever end up as a contestant on 'The Chase'.

[Metropolitan H]

Another vote here for the 4P 2-6-4T as the most successful of the "Sir Henry Fowler" designs.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Sandhole]

2-6-4 tank. Strong reliable master of its job, be it fast and local  passenger to banking on Shap.

[Clive Mortimore]

Anyone spotted this, I am fourth most poster on this thread.......whoops now joint third.

[LNER4479]

Yer need to get out more Clive. Ever thought of taking up golf?

[Timara]

Last pair of natural light photos, showing 60061.  Only major changes were paint matching where the original numbers had been scratched away, exposing the black body plastic below, and a new front number with the correct pattern 6.

 

 

 

Like Clive, the temptation to say " who's a pretty boy then?" is far too hard to resist... Cue the famous Monty Python sketch.....

 

I'll see myself out.... !

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Yer need to get out more Clive. Ever thought of taking up golf?

Tried it as a teenager, not sure if the instructor was crying with laughter or out of sheer desperation. I was that good I might hit the ball every other swing and even sometimes make it go in the right direction for more than six inches.

 

The climax of my sporting ability came during a discus throwing lesson. We were being taught how to throw by spinning around. Well my turn came up, how I didn't kill any of my classmates as this ancient weapon whizzed towards them at head height was a miracle. To which our PE teacher asked were all my family as good at sports as me. I couldn't lie so I said " Yes Sir, both my dad's brothers are PE teachers."

 

It was a bit of a lie, both were qualified PE teachers but I think John was coaching at Southampton Football Club at the time. Charlie later on received an MBE for his work with youth football. My grandfather was a good sportsman, he received many medals for football and running when he was in the RAF. My brother and my youngest are also good at football and many other sports. Sadly it seems the eldest in each generation is not so gifted, my dad , me and my eldest seem to have a non functioning Mortimore sports gene.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[great northern]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Yer need to get out more Clive. Ever thought of taking up golf?

But he would immediately chop up all his clubs, and put them back together in a different order. I suppose the good thing would be that they wouldn't need painting.

[New Haven Neil]

The 2-6-4T for me please, a superb design, from which they learned....not as much as they should have done.

 

Did you know one was green?  One odd photo in the back of the Hunt, Essery & James LMS Loco Profile.

[Clive Mortimore]

51 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

The 2-6-4T for me please, a superb design, from which they learned....not as much as they should have done.

 

Did you know one was green?  One odd photo in the back of the Hunt, Essery & James LMS Loco Profile.

Who would be that cruel to a Derby locomotive to paint it green?

[New Haven Neil]

22 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Who would be that cruel to a Derby locomotive to paint it green?

 

Weren't they green before they were Lake?

[Clive Mortimore]

3 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

Weren't they green before they were Lake?

Ah but that was a Midland green, not a GNR/NER/LNER apple green or BR diesel green, which BR applied to many steam engines before they had many diesels.

[great northern]

Back to a day in 1958 at PN, and Woolwinder waiting for the signal to leave.

 

 

Then one of our occasional forays into rolling stock pictures. Our man spotted this in the formation of an M&GN train, Gresley Dia 211 CK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Anyone spotted this, I am fourth most poster on this thread.......whoops now joint third.

I'm surprised to find that I was third, not that it matters in the least.

 

4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Tried it as a teenager, not sure if the instructor was crying with laughter or out of sheer desperation. I was that good I might hit the ball every other swing and even sometimes make it go in the right direction for more than six inches.

I've played precisely two rounds of golf in my life. The first was just after we moved to Edinburgh, when my brother and I tried it out. He loved it, I didn't. He still plays at a good standard, regularly winning club competitions.

 

The second time was a work golf day. There was a spot prize for the highest score at two holes - which two was not known to the players. I won easily, as I had the highest score at all 18.

Edited March 31, 2021 by St Enodoc