Peterborough North

[LNER4479]

Although I would hesitate to call myself a signalling expert, may I be permitted to attempt to answer an aspect of your query?

 

There does not need to be a 'stop' signal at the end of the platform to tell a driver to 'stop' at the station to set down and pick up passengers. The action of stopping at a platform is down to the driver, ie the driver will know from his schedule that the train is due to call at the station and will thus stop the train accordingly (irrespective of the aspect of any signal). Once stopped, his signal to restart is provided by the guard, ie the waving of the green flag (or light at night time) to signify that station duties are complete and that it is safe to restart the train (the driver thus looks back to the rear of the train for this 'signal').

 

It is often the case that there is a stop signal at the end of the platform (eg in the southbound direction at Peterborough's excursion platform). Therefore, when the guard waves the green flag, the driver must also check that the signal is clear before setting off. It is likely that the guard would not in any case wave his flag if he could see that the signal was at danger. Modern trains are now fitted with a 'Driver's Reminder Appliance' (DRA) which is intended to protect against a driver taking the 'tip' to start from the guard and setting off without checking the signal itself (the so called 'start away SPAD'). But in other cases, it might be the case that the next signal is out of sight, round a corner in which case the driver sets off and proceeds at caution until he can see its aspect and whether he is clear to continue beyond or not.

 

At busy locations, local arrangements might be that the signalman would not clear the stop signal until he had received an indication that the platform duties were complete and the train was ready to start. Again, on the modern railway many platforms at main stations have a 'Ready to Start' switch (plunger) which the platform staff operate to give this indication to the signalman. But otherwise, the signalman in his box cannot necessarily know what is going on down on the platform; his operation of the signals is all about telling the driver that he has permission to proceed into the next signalling 'block' section (or not).

 

PS

 

To complete the story, perhaps I should mention 'OFF' indicators (before someone else points it out!). These are typically provided on platforms of busy stations and are linked to the appropriate signal. When the signalman has cleared the signal, the 'OFF' indicator is illuminated, thus giving an indication to the guard and the platform staff assisting with the departure that the road ahead is clear. If you like the 'OFF' indicator is the signalman's way of communicating with the platform in a similar way to the 'Ready to Start' plunger is the platform's way of communcating with the signalman.

 

It occurs to me that the departure of a long express train from the main station at Peterborough, especially southbound, would be a far from straightforward affair. Due to the reverse curve, the driver would be unable to see to the back of the train; conversely, the guard at the rear of the train would not be able to see the signal! Hence the 'OFF' indicator - if fitted by 1958 (anybody know if they were?) - would be of considerable assistance. The guard's wave of the flag would then be relayed along the platform by the station staff so the driver knew it was safe to set off. Complicated thing starting a train!

 

BTW, just seen latest copy of Steam World and enjoyed your latest ramblings, especially pics at Grantham

[The Stationmaster]

It occurs to me that the departure of a long express train from the main station at Peterborough, especially southbound, would be a far from straightforward affair. Due to the reverse curve, the driver would be unable to see to the back of the train; conversely, the guard at the rear of the train would not be able to see the signal! Hence the 'OFF' indicator - if fitted by 1958 (anybody know if they were?) - would be of considerable assistance. The guard's wave of the flag would then be relayed along the platform by the station staff so the driver knew it was safe to set off. Complicated thing starting a train!

 

Even more complicated than that! 

1. Station staff along the train observe that all doors are properly closed etc and that the signal at the platform end is 'off') if there is such a signal and then handsignal the Guard to indicate that it is safe for him to give the signal to start 

2. Guard then gives signal that train is ready to start to the Driver, relayed as necessary by platform staff unless there is a suitable 'RA' indicator for the purpose.

 

So the signal that all is ready starts at the head of the train and moves to the back and the signals yo start begins at the back and moves to the front.

 

As far as the signalling at Peterborough is concerned it was a maze of short section working probably with some specially authorised Clearing Points or frequent use of the Warning Arrangement (Regulation 5) due to the difficulty in getting a proper 440 yard Clearing Point.

 

The isolated Distant Signals just in advance of stop signals were a 'very' Eastern Region feature at some larger stations and seem to have descended from both GNR and GER practice (another example, albeit not at the station, was at Ipswich).  While a little unusual compared with the way some other companies/BR Regions did things it is in reality only a different way of carrying out perfectly normal signalling practice although in some locations lack of a stop signal mounted above the distant possibly constrained capacity a little.

[andyrush]

1947 LNER Appendix p.41 reads:

 

"PETERBOROUGH NORTH
 

ASSISTANCE IN STARTING DOWN PASSENGER TRAINS.

Where authorised, Down Passenger trains may be assisted out of Peterboro’ North Station on the Main line by an engine in the rear.
The Driver of the train must be informed that it will be assisted to start by an engine in the rear and Rule 133, clause [c] first paragraph, must be observed.
The assistant engine will not be attached to the train and will leave it at the north end of the platform.

 

STARTING OF PASSENGER TRAINS FROM Nos.2 AND 3 PLATFORMS.

To enable communications to be established between the Inspector and Guard for the purpose of starting lns from the Up and Down Main line Platforms, the following apparatus is provided

 
No.2 Platform (Up Main).
An indicator lettered “ S “ and bell situated at the South end of the Platform adjacent to Nos. I and 2 Platform signs. A Guard’s plunger for operating  the indicator and bell, provided on the advertisement hoarding 20 yards from the end of the wall at the rear of the station.

A duplicate Guard’s plunger situated near to the Platform clock
A clearance plunger outside the Inspector’s Office.

 

No.3 Platform (Down Main).
An indicator lettered “ S “ and bell situated at the North end of the Platform roof.
A Guard’s plunger located on the wall outside Guards’ Room.
A duplicate Guard’s plunger and a clearance plunger provided outside the Foreman’s room.

The Inspector or Foreman will intimate that the front portion of the train is ready by giving the appropriate hand signal to the Guard.

The Guard, when he is ready to do so, must operate the plunger which will cause “S “ to show in the front indicator and ring the bell. The man in charge at the front of the train must then give the “ right away “ signal to the Driver in accordance with Rule 141  third paragraph.
The duplicate Guard’s plungers are to be used by Guards of short trains.
The arrangements shown above do not in any way supersede Rules 127 (ix) and 143.
After departure of the train the Inspector or Foreman must operate the clearance plunger which will return the apparatus to normal in readiness for the next train.
In connection with a train which has to draw up, the apparatus must not be operated until the station duties are completed and the train is ready to depart."

 

There was no alteration to these instructions in the 1956 Supplement

[LNER4479]

Andy,

 

Can I be cheeky and ask if the 1947 LNER Appendix has any similar instructions for Grantham (sorry GN!)? If there are any and you are able to look out, then post on my thread if you prefer to save hijacking this one!

[andyrush]

You can be cheeky, but I will be cheeky too and say that if you are modelling a real location you NEED the Appendix    

There is loads of stuff in there that will help with operating the layout realistically (the same applies to PN, of course but I've already mentioned it to Gilbert). There are a couple for sale on Amazon for under 20 beer vouchers (+ postage) - ignore the silly-priced one on abebooks! 

 

Further communication on your thread....!

[LNERGE]

Many thanks to LNERGE for the SB diagrams, are they all of the same period?? Do you have rough dates?

 They are roughly about the same date. I do have some later ones. This one is about as late as you can get though...

 

[TheLaird]

 They are roughly about the same date. I do have some later ones. This one is about as late as you can get though...

 

I was trying to establish how they relate to Gilberts time period of 1958!! I think the last one is a little too modern.

[LNERGE]

The Crescent Junction is just a little older than the model as it has more semaphores. The North and Spital Junction are about right. I don't have dates for them i'm afraid.

[great northern]

Enough of this levity, and I'm bored with watching snow coming down. My head is spinning with complications, and it also hurts from banging my head against a wall on another thread.

 

I shall therefore retreat to the comparative safety of taking dodgy photos and spoiling them still more with even dodgier shopping. The next train on the Up was the 1145am Dundee- KX, accoring to the WTT. It seems a strange train, as it doesn't seem to be a relief to anyhting else, but there we are. Headed by one of New England's filthiest, we follow its progress until it comes to a stand, but from a slightly higher vantage point than usual, most of the time at least.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Later I will try to assimilate all of this very helpful information about the arcane procedures which were followed at Peterborough. My first reaction though is that it seems that if we are going to operate the layout properly, we shall need to find some very vertically challenged people to stand under that overall roof.

[Guest Tom F]

Another moody sky over Peterborough. I love it!

[davidw]

Is that a PDK A2/1?

[andyrush]

Very good sequence, you shouldn't be referring to your Photoshopping efforts as dodgy - I've seen worse in magazines!

 

Nice bit of positioning of stock in the bay and the dock.... 

Looks like all (!) the New England cleaners are cleaning loco lamps 

[Mallard60022]

Great shots G, particularly the first. That loco looks like it has a 'stealth' finish (had that been invented in '58?).

I can understand how your head is bursting after all that signal input; it seems very complex but then I'm but a simple boy.

P

[great northern]

Is that a PDK A2/1?

Correct David.

[great northern]

Very good sequence, you shouldn't be referring to your Photoshopping efforts as dodgy - I've seen worse in magazines!

 

Nice bit of positioning of stock in the bay and the dock.... 

Looks like all (!) the New England cleaners are cleaning loco lamps 

Someone looked in a long forgotten cupboard Andy, and found a load of brand new LNER lamps. They haven't had time to get dirty yet. I'm glad you noticed the carefully positioned stock. I didn't mention it, as I didn't want to tempt fate.

[Mallard60022]

Hooray. Gilbert is not frozen.

For a minute there I thought we might have been treated to the New England ploughs. Is there still hope?

P

Edited January 19, 2013 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

Great shots G, particularly the first. That loco looks like it has a 'stealth' finish (had that been invented in '58?).

I can understand how your head is bursting after all that signal input; it seems very complex but then I'm but a simple boy.

P

That makes two of us then Phil. I'm ashamed to say that I'm discovering day by day how little I know about the day to day working of the steam railway, but very grateful all the same for the wealth of expert input and advice. I must now steel myself to ask some questions which will reveal just how sketchy my knowledge is.

[JeffP]

Gilbert, a question if I may. This has come about because of your thread.

Can you, or anyone, say why the Pacific locos often only ran as far as Peterborough, or Grantham, before being changed, whereas the humble B1 was expected to do all the way from Cleethorpes to KX, or return?

[60027Merlin]

Lovely shots of the A2/3 Gilbert. The weathering is extremely effective with that look of ingrained grime.

 

Were they ever cleaned?

 

Eric

[great northern]

Gilbert, a question if I may. This has come about because of your thread.

Can you, or anyone, say why the Pacific locos often only ran as far as Peterborough, or Grantham, before being changed, whereas the humble B1 was expected to do all the way from Cleethorpes to KX, or return?

I think it was down partly to operational convenience Jeff, but also I suspect that this duty was a very nice earner for Immingham and Boston crews. I stand to be corrected, but I think there was a crew change sometimes at Boston too?

 

The main line diagrams seem to have been very much designed with the eight hour working day in mind, so changing at Grantham in particular would allow the same locomotive to do two round trips a day, but with different crews, and no overtime to pay. Looked at in that way, 440 miles a day for a steam loco was a pretty good utilisation. No doubt the less than perfect availability of the Gresley pacifics in the post war years and until the double kylchaps were fitted had something to do with the mian line diagrams too. The ambitious aims of 1950 involving much more through running were quicly abandoned in 1951 because of soaring failure rates. By 1958 though through turns to Newcastle were again becoming more normal. I can imagine the reaction of Immingham though if an attempt had been made to take their best jobs away. Perhaps Andy Rush would now be kind enough to gently correct my errors.

[great northern]

Lovely shots of the A2/3 Gilbert. The weathering is extremely effective with that look of ingrained grime.

 

Were they ever cleaned?

 

Eric

Rarely I think Eric. There is an article by Freeman Allen in a 1955 Trains Illustrated  " The allocation of New England as I write is 167 engines - for which, those correspondents who wax satirical at 35A cleanliness please note, there are only nine cleaners, and two for shed cleaning;such is the keen competition of local industry, with its superior working conditions while steam power prevails, for labour." So, harsh reality dictated that most New England engines were rarely pristine, or anywhere near. I don't know how you got away with it at Haymarket? It's our only English A2/1 by the way, but so filthy you can't really see either number or name on those photos.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

It's probably buried in this thread somewhere, but is there any way to have smaller lamps? Your engine crew will get a hernia lugging those fluorescent milk churns on and off the lamp irons. They rather spoil your otherwise marvellous evocation of authentic steamery, in my very humble opinion.

[great northern]

 

It's probably buried in this thread somewhere, but is there any way to have smaller lamps? Your engine crew will get a hernia lugging those fluorescent milk churns on and off the lamp irons. They rather spoil your otherwise marvellous evocation of authentic steamery, in my very humble opinion.

I agree with you completely! I have three types of lamp to choose from. The first is the Springside BR type lamp.

 

 

As seen on yesterday's photos. Well over scale. Then there is the Springside LNER lamp.

 

 

These are less obtrusive, and I have now decided to use these only in future. But, there is another way....

 

 

It must have taken me all of thirty seconds to weather that right hand lamp.   Doesn' it make a difference? Even the BR lamp now looks much more acceptable, and the LNER ones should be hardly noticeable.... if I can avoid my terrible idleness for long enough to actually do the job. The third type incidentally are the Bachmann ones, which are plastic, look it, and are even bigger than the larger Springside ones.

[New Haven Neil]

Love the weathered lamp, makes a great difference.  I really dislike (ducks) the whiter than white ones, I'd rather have none (REALLY ducks) as they jar so much to me.  I have an original LNER type, and it isn't white, it's cream, but it has had a year or two to mature!  It was given to me when Sir Nigel was at Philadelphia, by one of the then support crew, Frank wappat, a fireman who became a local radio personality!

 

Talking of ducks, Mr Mallard sir, the Germans tried stealth paint on U boat conning towers towards the end of WWII as an attempt to avoid radar detection.  Didn't work.....  Sorry for the diversion, Gilbert.

 

PS  I spy the N5

[great northern]

 A couple of proper shots of the day, featuring a loco you may not have seen before.

 

 

 

It's just yet another load of coal on its way to London, but the locomotive might cause some surprise. What is a Standard Class 5 doing here? It is yet another of those strange vagaries of loco allocation, as three of these were sent to Kings Cross in 1957. They had all been at Neasden for a while, but that shed passed them on to KX. Predictably, given the innate conservatism of enginemen they were not popular, and lasted for just a year, during which time they seem to have dealt with some Cambridge trains, but not much else. A coal train though? Well, they were a mixed traffic loco, though I'm sure that is not what the designer envisaged. And here is the proof that at least once KX did use them like this. The photo is again copyright of and by kind permission of Andrew C Ingram, and not to be further reproduced.

 

 

This was taken South of Crescent Bridge by the way, so I can't attempt to reproduce it. KX shuffled all three, 73157-9, off to Sheffield Darnall, but they didn't fare any better there, and were soon moved again to Derby, whence they again worked through Peterborough. The three always seemed to be moved together for some reason - strange.

 

One last comment. Mallard 60022 asked me about "going away shots". The second shot today looks strange to me, particularly round the front of the loco, and yet it was taken in just the same way as all others. Perhaps it is the design of the loco that matters? An A3 seems to look right from any angle.