Peterborough North

[LNERGE]

Hi LNERGE,

The Crescent box interior is suggested detail in as much as I used the Springside interior detailing kit to fit out the box to give the illusion of interior detail.

for the most part the interior would nor be seen altho I have put a light inside, If I were to fit an interior exact to the Crescent box for period ( assuming we had all the photos & info ) it would take many months to produce and as far as costing, it would get silly.

I doub't the Springside levers are GNR so would have to have masters made and have them made to the type used in Crescent box and then the block instruments :-) say no more.

 

Crescent box is as near a likeness to the original, at least from the outside and the rest is suggestive, 'However' it is always possible to add or take away certain details as info turns up, if deemed necessary.

Cheers

Peter

The box is magnificent and is instantly recognisable as Crescent Junction. A little something has come to light that has taken me aback. The arrangement is sufficiently trivial as to be almost tongue in cheek and i hope no one takes any offence regarding what i will post in due course. I have been a collector of information on GN, GE, GC, LNER and BR(E) signalling for around 30 years. Until a couple of days ago if i had been asked if this arrangement was used by GN, GE, GC, LNER or BR(E) i would have said only in some outpost in the back of beyond and not at Crescent Junction.

[artizen]

Nicely atmospheric shots when enlarged Gilbert! (Of course I had to, you told me to!)

[LNERGE]

This arrangement can't have lasted long and thus it is totally justifiable to ignore it totally, however if this layout fits the date (i don't have a date for this plan) and all the levers are modelled in the normal position three signal arms would be off.

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by LNERGE

[Welly]

Hooray! The mystery apparatus is revealed!

[Mallard60022]

Great things come tho those who/that wait (to misquote a well misquoted quotation)

What a neat bit of signalling and quite likely to catch some inexperienced driver out I'm sure. However, very useful in fog no doubt?

P

[LNERGE]

Down Road is just as interesting.. There is a banner that requires 21 and 22 arms off that indicates the line is clear to Peterborough North home signal. There were/are not many banner signals out there controlled by the home and starter signals..

[The Stationmaster]

Hooray! The mystery apparatus is revealed!

 

Interesting in that I asked a pal of mine who was a Fireman at Top Shed what it was for - he didn't know!  (He later became Yardmaster at New England but of course that was completely separate from the station.)

[great northern]

Finally... The indicator.. as i first saw it on a plan..

 

P1090714.JPG

 

and enlarged..

 

P1090722.JPG

 

I imagined it read to branch or main but no it read to main or goods...

Thanks for finally ending the suspense Richard. As with so many things, when you get the answer it seems so simple that you can't believe you hadn't thought of it ages ago. Looking at it logically, the colour light signal at the South end only gives indication for the Main or the "Branch" down to East, so drivers of goods trains in particular would not know whether they were going to be allowed to continue on the main, or much more likely be put onto the Up goods which started the other side of Crescent Bridge.

 

When I have time, I shall now look at earlier photos to see if this indicator was there before the installation of the colour light in 1957/58. Prior to that there was a large multi arm bracket which it replaced, and I assume that had an arm for the Slow. Could it have been sighted under the overall roof though?

[great northern]

This arrangement can't have lasted long and thus it is totally justifiable to ignore it totally, however if this layout fits the date (i don't have a date for this plan) and all the levers are modelled in the normal position three signal arms would be off.

 

Crescent (extract).jpg

Before my time Richard, as the bracket that was replaced by the colour light with feather is still shown. I have to admit that my knowledge of the dark art of signalling is so poor that I don't really understand the significance of your post.

[LNERGE]

Before my time Richard, as the bracket that was replaced by the colour light with feather is still shown. I have to admit that my knowledge of the dark art of signalling is so poor that I don't really understand the significance of your post.

Levers 2, 10 and 23 would normally stand half way across the frame or half pulled if you like. To clear say 2 main arm into the excursion line platform the lever would be pulled from this centre position to reverse. to restore 2 main arm the lever is returned to the mid position. To clear the calling on arm to the same location the lever is pushed to the normal position. to restore 2 calling on arm the lever is returned to the mid position.

 

I imagine most non working lever frame kits come with the levers standing normal, or in the frame. If the frame is modelled like this 2' 10 and 23 calling on arms would be off..

 

In my 30 odd years of collecting GN mainline bits and bobs i have never come across even the slightest hint there were push pull levers out there let alone at Crescent Junction. Such arrangements are usually left to railways south of The River and places where nanny goats graze the banks.. (a term used by my ex Hitchin lineman boss to describe anywhere other than the GN mainline)

[LNERGE]

Thanks for finally ending the suspense Richard. As with so many things, when you get the answer it seems so simple that you can't believe you hadn't thought of it ages ago. Looking at it logically, the colour light signal at the South end only gives indication for the Main or the "Branch" down to East, so drivers of goods trains in particular would not know whether they were going to be allowed to continue on the main, or much more likely be put onto the Up goods which started the other side of Crescent Bridge.

 

When I have time, I shall now look at earlier photos to see if this indicator was there before the installation of the colour light in 1957/58. Prior to that there was a large multi arm bracket which it replaced, and I assume that had an arm for the Slow. Could it have been sighted under the overall roof though?

I suspect the bracket may have been easier to sight. The indicator would give the driver of a heavily loaded freight the ability to drive his train at linespeed knowing his route was set with signals cleared.. I wonder if the old set up the large bracket at the platform end plus the up main to up goods bracket (62/65) could be sighted if not together but in succession? The colourlight may have been a bit more directional?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Here is one of the box diagrams i have. The banner repeater on the down fast has caused considerable debate elsewhere but i'm sure is off scene for you. Some other thing's are about to come to light also. This may affect you if the lever frame has been modelled faithfully in the box. More of anon.

 

Crescent Junction.jpg

 

This fascinating diagram highlights to me what a terrible bottleneck Peterborough was - not just due to the reverse curves (15mph speed limit) but a very restricted layout with many conflicting movements. Even allowing for the fact that there were many fewer passenger trains than these days (and by quite a factor in this case), one really does wonder how they coped with the traffic, especially after the closure of East station.

 

The Nene sidings seem quite an odd layout. Were they used just for freight or also for empty passenger rakes? Would M&GN trains have been marshalled from there?

[tetleys]

This fascinating diagram highlights to me what a terrible bottleneck Peterborough was - not just due to the reverse curves (15mph speed limit) but a very restricted layout with many conflicting movements. Even allowing for the fact that there were many fewer passenger trains than these days (and by quite a factor in this case), one really does wonder how they coped with the traffic, especially after the closure of East station.

 

The Nene sidings seem quite an odd layout. Were they used just for freight or also for empty passenger rakes? Would M&GN trains have been marshalled from there?

 

I visited Peterborough North yesterday for purposes of quality control, I am pleased to report that Gilbert's bacon butties passed muster as always and having been fed and watered I inspected Gravytrains' latest excellent model of Crescent Bridge signal box complete with part detailed interior. The building is stunning as are all of Peter's contributions to P. North and despite wearing my best £5.99 reading glasses I couldn't see more than a vague interior because of reflections and the distance from the viewing point, any attempt to create an exact copy of this lever frame or anything other than a ground frame to me seems totally pointless. Peter could have spent another 10 hours modelling and it would add nothing to the layout.

 

Signalling Philistine of Ancaster

[Tony Wright]

I visited PN today and took the opportunity to get some more snaps, including a glimpse of Crescent 'box beneath Crescent Bridge Though it's another wonderful example of Peter's work, I can't see how anybody will be able to see a perfect interior from normal viewing distances. Anyway, it was the passage of the Scotch Goods which interested me more. 

 

Still, progress is looking good all around the layout. 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks for your hospitality Gilbert. 

 

TW.

 

 

[landscapes]

Very nice set of photos, especially the last two.

 

Regards

 

David

[Mallard60022]

That blinkin' ferret has nibbled the wheel right off that parcels trolley.

Tony, that second (and probably third  also) pic is really good in that the height, angle and  composition are just so realistic. Brilliant stuff. 

I feel so inspired that I am going to dig out the Triplet and get on with it tomorrow.

Dave, was it you that posted sometime on here saying that you had a dream about your layout track plan and took action to get constructing following that, or am I just even further over the edge than normal? I ask because last night, after Paracetamol and alcohol induced slumber (due to some 'orrible lurgy that overwhelmed me), I think I visualised my possible mainline plan and it was a good un, apart from the fact it would be SR mainline in south east Devon in circa 1962!

P @ 36E

Edited January 14, 2014 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

This fascinating diagram highlights to me what a terrible bottleneck Peterborough was - not just due to the reverse curves (15mph speed limit) but a very restricted layout with many conflicting movements. Even allowing for the fact that there were many fewer passenger trains than these days (and by quite a factor in this case), one really does wonder how they coped with the traffic, especially after the closure of East station.

 

The Nene sidings seem quite an odd layout. Were they used just for freight or also for empty passenger rakes? Would M&GN trains have been marshalled from there?

Nene sidings were specifically for carriage storage as far as I know. All the photos I have show passsenger stock in them. There were only two short carriage sidings within the station complex, so Nene was the main area. M&GN trains were certainly marshalled from there - I have a number of photos of Ivatt 4's coming up past Crescent Junction box with passenger stock and carrying class C lights.

 

As to how the staff coped with the traffic, the answer seems to be that particularly on summer Saturdays, they didn't! Sadly, a lot of East's traffic closed before or at the same time as it did, so there was not a great deal of extra burden, and what there was would largely have been in the form of DMUs.

[great northern]

The last few days have seen several celebrity visitors to PN. On Friday it was Andy Y, taking photos to grace my debut article in BRM next month. Yesterday, as you may have read, our Tetley's made a welcome return, and today TW and Ian Wilson, Ian to prepare plans to accompany the articles, and Tony to take some photos, try to get recalcitrant locos to function properly, and to remind me, though very kindly, of my many sins of omission. Why is it that I just don't notice that vac pipes, shackles, and goodness knows what else are missing from far too many of my locos? I shall try to improve.

 

At least you have some proper photos to look at, but then Tony's camera is much bigger than mine. And look at that last photo. Can you see how he cunningly managed to get a lot of the lattice work in the signals level with Spital Bridge, thus saving much photoshoppery? And he got the lamps on the A4 dead straight and level too. I have much to learn, and just looking at things more carefully would be a good start.

[Mallard60022]

The last few days have seen several celebrity visitors  to PN. On Friday it was Andy Y, taking photos to grace my debut article in BRM next month. Yesterday, as you may have read, our Tetley's made a welcome return, and today TW and Ian Wilson, Ian to prepare plans to accompany the articles, and Tony to take some photos, try to get recalcitrant locos to function properly, and to remind me, though very kindly, of my many sins of omission. Why is it that I just don't notice that vac pipes, shackles, and goodness knows what else are missing from far too many of my locos? I shall try to improve.

 

At least you have some proper photos to look at, but then Tony's camera is much bigger than mine. And look at that last photo. Can you see how he cunningly managed to get a lot of the lattice work in the signals level with Spital Bridge, thus saving much photoshoppery? And he got the lamps on the A4 dead straight and level too. I have much to learn, and just looking at things more carefully would be a good start.

....but Tony can't play Golf as well as you....... and as for Cricket.......

Reassurance; we all to need to confess our sins every so often and who better to take note of same but TW or AY/IW or anyone from BRM (or ex BRM) really

Big hugs in a manly sort of way.

P from 36E

Edited January 15, 2014 by Mallard60022

[bigwordsmith]

GRRRR!

 

I hate the way every time I look at this layout I feel inadequate - yet like a freshly made cake that you know is good for you, I just can't help but come back for more!

 

Excellent pics of a great layout - looking forward to the debut in BRM!

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for the praise for the photographs, though I have had a few years' practice. Gilbert's right in that my camera is much bigger than his.

 

Though slightly off topic, I once read a book about bluffing at photography where by 'appearing' to be able to use an enormous camera, somehow the impression was given that either you really knew what you were doing or it was in compensation for an inadequacy in a certain (very personal) part of male anatomy. Rather like in car engine size. Since, in my photographic career I've used a Speed Graphic, MPP, Linhof Technika (none of which I owned) and a Mamiya Press and Pentax 6x7 and now a Nikon D3, observers can make of that what they wish! I won't mention the car.

 

Getting back to topic, what it means is that I cannot get the absolutely low angles achieved by Gilbert (and Andy), though I can get a very reasonable depth of field, even at close quarters, by the use of a 55mm Micro lens (which stops down to - almost - F45). So, whilst having the eye-line of a giant, a reasonably intimate shot can be achieved, such as the one below - and don't mention the Photoshopping required to remove the spaces amongst the lattice work. White signal posts give a particularly tricky problem to solve because they can go against the usual convention of the lightest element in a 'natural' picture being the sky. Thus, a very light blue sky behind a white post results in their disappearing. Though the sky background is real, it's darker than I would usually use. However, since it's high summer at Peterborough in 1958 (make it a year later, and what a brilliant summer that was!), and the northbound Scotch Goods would be passing in the late afternoon, might not the angle of the sun produced such a result?

 

 

 

 

I have used a smaller camera (another Nikon) to give more of an eye-level view but the limitations it imposes (I don't do stacking!) means I become more frustrated at the lack of real 'quality'. I also find its sensitivity to colour balance is ill-equipped (especially with the difficult lighting conditions of Peterborough North), hence the just B&W status of the shot above. As for the Photoshopping required - I'm still twitching! What I've also tried to achieve is a 'dramatic' sky, the equivalent of burning-in that section of a traditional B&W print. Look at some of Colin Walker's fantastic images to show what I mean. 

 

 

The little camera means it can be placed on station platforms and by using fill-in flash (bounced off the ceiling) the effects of contre-jour (is that the right spelling?) are counteracted. I'm quite pleased then with this picture.

 

 

Taken from the opposite platform, no flash was required because the light was from the right direction.

 

Oh, and I should have spotted the broken wheel on the platform trolley in the previous pictures.

[Tony Wright]

Sorry for all the extra images appearing in the post above - they were not meant to be included but I'm a computer duffer. Some have been seen before, but they do illustrate the problems of colour balance encountered on PN. These were taken last year, and much extra work has been done since then.

 

Oh, and see what I mean about missing shackles!

[JeffP]

Brilliant photos.

Tony, would you mind saying what camera and what lens is used, please? I like to see what people are using, not just, "A Nikon", or "a Canon".

Thanks.

[landscapes]

Good morning Gilbert

 

Wow that last set of photos of PN are just stunning, without doubt some of the best photos I have seen on RMWeb to date.

 

I believe Tony must have enough material on your layout alone to produce a follow- up to his book "Modelling Options The Book of LNER Pacific's".

 

Regards

 

David

[jwealleans]

see what I mean about missing shackles!

Next time we meet, Gilbert, I'll give you some ideas about securing containers.  Something to do when you ought to be getting out more.