Will the NRM get a new workshop?

[009 micro modeller]

13 hours ago, Wheatley said:

the Explainer "couldn't possibly comment ;-)”

Why would they know (or need to know) given that they don’t work in collections or conservation. It’s of only peripheral relevance to the subjects they usually deliver talks on…

 

10 hours ago, 31A said:

Although I live nearby I haven't visited since the "Wonderlab" thing opened and I'm not sure I'm in a hurry to!

Because you’re not the target audience perhaps? I’ve always wondered if there’s an internet forum about historical docks and shipping somewhere where adults similarly rant on about the London Docklands museum and how they won’t be visiting Mudlarks when they go there (even though, again, that particular bit of the museum is aimed at children and they’re not the target audience).

 

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Now yes I agree that these things can be mitigate things with a hermetically sealed viewing gallery from which the public are excluded every time someone wants to use a Oxyacetylene torch, but the bottom line is such things get in the way of running a profitable and efficient enterprise - which is what any workshop facility at York would have to be.

It’s also not good from a visitor experience point of view - as I recall there were other things to see close to or on the viewing gallery, so closing this part of the museum at random times during the day isn’t ideal (unless they only do welding etc. outside of opening hours, but again that doesn’t seem hugely convenient or practical).

[31A]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

he Wonderlabs target audience is CHILDREN

 

Thank you; there's no need to shout at me - I'm quite familiar with the place, being a resident of York and a member of The Friends of The NRM.   What I was saying was, I do not feel motivated to visit the NRM now there is no Workshop to look at.

[31A]

21 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

11 hours ago, 31A said:

Although I live nearby I haven't visited since the "Wonderlab" thing opened and I'm not sure I'm in a hurry to!

Because you’re not the target audience perhaps? I’ve always wondered if there’s an internet forum about historical docks and shipping somewhere where adults similarly rant on about the London Docklands museum and how they won’t be visiting Mudlarks when they go there (even though, again, that particular bit of the museum is aimed at children and they’re not the target audience).

 

Thank you; see above.   It's not that I haven't been because of the existence of the Wonderlab (which I realise is not targeted at me) but at least in part because of the lack of the Workshop, which I always found one of the most interesting parts of any visit.  I believe a large part of the NRM is out of bounds at the moment for reconstruction anyway, which I wish them all the best with and look forward to visiting again when it is finished.

 

[009 micro modeller]

29 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Thank you; see above.   It's not that I haven't been because of the existence of the Wonderlab (which I realise is not targeted at me) but at least in part because of the lack of the Workshop, which I always found one of the most interesting parts of any visit.  I believe a large part of the NRM is out of bounds at the moment for reconstruction anyway, which I wish them all the best with and look forward to visiting again when it is finished.

 

Indeed - if I had one criticism of the NRM reconstruction work, it’s that it seems to have overlapped with the similar work going on at MoSI in Manchester - it might have been good if the Science Museum Group

could have managed to avoid the situation where two of their main northern sites are partially closed at the same time, but equally understandable if this wasn’t possible. I look forward to visiting again when it’s finished, though I’d probably still have a quick look before then, if I was in York and had the time.

 

Actually on the earlier point about welding, could this not be done in a sort of enclosed welding bay within the larger space to avoid the safety issues mentioned? Similar arrangements have been used in other railway workshops previously. That doesn’t alter the wider point about whether they actually need to run their own overhaul workshop and whether it’s the best possible use of the space.

 

In terms of in-service maintenance on the locos used to give rides on-site, does anyone know how this was done previously? I’ve just been reminded looking at the map that the South Yard is the wrong side of the site for the previous loco workshop anyway (I think), so did they have their own more basic facilities or did they have to go to the other side via the connecting Network Rail lines? The NRM has never struck me as the most logistically straightforward museum site, though hopefully the redevelopment works should at least make it easier for visitors to access and move around the museum.

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Why would they know (or need to know) given that they don’t work in collections or conservation. It’s of only peripheral relevance to the subjects they usually deliver talks on… 

They didn't say they didn't know, they actually did say they couldn't possibly comment. It's a 'House Of Cards' reference and I got it even if you didn't. 

 

As I couldn't give a monkey's whether the NRM has a functioning workshop or not I shall step away and leave you to it. 

 

(31A - it's actually almost worth the 7 quid to get in !). 

[Peak]

On 17/02/2024 at 22:21, 009 micro modeller said:

I don’t remember these articles, only the ones mentioning the closure of the old one.

 

I thought the plan was to still have a conservation studio and basic workshop to enable them to do conservation and cosmetic restoration. Obviously what this entails depends on the objects involved (since they may not all be locomotives - the NRM has a vast number of smaller objects as well). But this is very different (and in the context of a static museum arguably more appropriate) from a workshop designed for doing heavy overhauls. I can’t quite see how they would staff the latter on an ongoing basis, if it’s only used to do one overhaul every few years. And plenty of museums outsource certain specific functions to those with suitable expertise.

I've just asked Julie Moody who is involved with Vision 2025 and she said this.

[Northmoor]

On 18/02/2024 at 14:58, Dava said:

NRM has hardly anyone left who is qualified to do restoration work on large artefacts, as distinct from conservation. It has to be subcontracted or carried out by organisations such as heritage railways on items on loan. GCR currently has 3 steam locos under or awaiting restoration and 2 diesels from NRM. 

That makes the NRM no different from many, if not most, standard gauge preserved railways in the UK which don't have the facilities and volunteer/paid staff with the relevant skills, to overhaul anything bigger than a small steam locomotive.  Enthusiasts don't seem to consider those railways to be of declining interest.

Edited February 25 by Northmoor

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, Northmoor said:

That makes the NRM no different from many, if not most, standard gauge preserved railways in the UK which don't have the facilities and volunteer/paid staff with the relevant skills, to overhaul anything bigger than a steam locomotive. 

Indeed, although I’m not sure where the line is being drawn between restoration and conservation in this case (and whether it should be drawn anyway). Where does cosmetic restoration fit in to this? Conservation is a different process anyway and obviously varies for paper-based objects as opposed to locos etc.

 

10 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Enthusiasts don't seem to consider those railways to be of declining interest.

Exactly, but they also don’t usually seem to use goings-on on those railways as an opportunity to bash museum professionals in general (see National Preservation NRM thread as well for more of this - I’m not suggesting that anyone in particular is doing so on this thread). And a more obvious point, but for some people the NRM isn’t as interesting because it’s mainly a static museum, as opposed to most heritage railways which have working railways often several miles long.

[009 micro modeller]

17 hours ago, Peak said:

I've just asked Julie Moody who is involved with Vision 2025 and she said this.

That’s good to hear (and good that you actually emailed them rather than just speculating). I thought the issue was more to do with the capability of each workshop, i.e. I’d expect them to be able to do conservation and cosmetic restoration at Locomotion (which I understand started as a museum store before it was publicly open, so it’s an appropriate place for more involved restoration work) and then some conservation work at the NRM. I don’t know how that works out in terms of doing day-to-day light maintenance on locos running in the South Yard (as I’m not sure it’s connected to the North Yard any more and if it is it’s via Network Rail) although I assume they have a plan for that as well.

[Peak]

22 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

That’s good to hear (and good that you actually emailed them rather than just speculating). I thought the issue was more to do with the capability of each workshop, i.e. I’d expect them to be able to do conservation and cosmetic restoration at Locomotion (which I understand started as a museum store before it was publicly open, so it’s an appropriate place for more involved restoration work) and then some conservation work at the NRM. I don’t know how that works out in terms of doing day-to-day light maintenance on locos running in the South Yard (as I’m not sure it’s connected to the North Yard any more and if it is it’s via Network Rail) although I assume they have a plan for that as well.

Isn't she wrong about North Yard as that isn't owned by the NRM? I presume she means South Yard or North Shed as there is a prep bay in North Shed?

[6990WitherslackHall]

1 hour ago, Peak said:

Isn't she wrong about North Yard as that isn't owned by the NRM? I presume she means South Yard or North Shed as there is a prep bay in North Shed?

That's what I was thinking

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Peak said:

Isn't she wrong about North Yard as that isn't owned by the NRM?

Isn’t that roughly where the previous workshop was (perhaps not actually in North Yard but on that side of the site, i.e. not connected directly to South Yard which was my main point)?

[Peak]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Isn’t that roughly where the previous workshop was (perhaps not actually in North Yard but on that side of the site, i.e. not connected directly to South Yard which was my main point)?

Could you point out where that would be on google maps please?

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Peak said:

Could you point out where that would be on google maps please?

Refer to this map: https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/NRM Map Update_Feb23_WEB.pdf

 

If the old one was where Wonderlab is, I think it’s on the opposite side from the South Yard (which is next to the miniature railway).

 

[BMS]

I'm suspecting that "Workshop" has a large range of possible capabilities; e.g. I have a (small) domestic "workshop" which is absolutely nowhere near being able to handle serious maintenance to locos. I'm suspecting that at York routine maintenance is possible but not full conservation.

 

My experience is that visitors appreciate experiencing the reality of "real" practical railway  environments rather than too polished.  

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, BMS said:

I'm suspecting that at York routine maintenance is possible but not full conservation.

Exactly, but on the other hand conservation is potentially vastly different to a full mechanical overhaul to main line condition. And as above, there are a vast number of smaller collection items for which conservation will involve completely different skills, materials and facilities when compared to a loco.

[Peak]

23 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Refer to this map: https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/NRM Map Update_Feb23_WEB.pdf

 

If the old one was where Wonderlab is, I think it’s on the opposite side from the South Yard (which is next to the miniature railway).

 

I was thinking it would be where the tent is near station hall.

[5944]

On 18/02/2024 at 11:41, Wheatley said:

In the meantime, the last time I was there they were doing something with the 31 in the Great Hall that involved parking it over the inspection pit completely sealed up with  polythene sheets and gaffer tape. 

 

It seemed unnecessarily unkind to mention to the Explainer that it was a shame they didn't have some sort of workshop where this sort of thing could be done. 

The 31 (and the 40) were moved from York to Shildon today - could it have been related to getting the loco prepped for that? It's been a long time since the 31 moved any distance, especially on the mainline.

[Wheatley]

15 minutes ago, 5944 said:

The 31 (and the 40) were moved from York to Shildon today - could it have been related to getting the loco prepped for that? It's been a long time since the 31 moved any distance, especially on the mainline.

 

Ah, I noticed they'd gone on my way home, thanks. The 108 has been split too, I hope they've not been taking advice from the 503 mob...

Edited February 27 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

I went to the British Museum last week.

 

I actually had a hard time finding anything British in it.

 

Its a museum full of looted artifacts from around the world, most of which arrived more than 100 years ago, and many of which remain here in a state of conflict in a modern world who want their ancestors artifacts returned.

 

Elgin Marbles, Ur palace, Egyptian tombs, Easter Island Moai… any number of household decorative artifacts (bowls, spoons etc from across the world, and the centuries)…German, French, Dutch..

 

(I did find a Scottish chess set but it was removed from display, and apparently the Scots want it back).

looks nice, expensive building, prime real estate, obviously not short of a bob or two, it too has free entry and a gift shop.

 

Personally I think the British museum title might be better bestowed on celebrating British achievements, of which Railways, and the civil engineering, scientific practices associated to it was Britains gift to the world… they too can be stuffed and mounted like the Greek Marbles, and continue the debate about whether the NRM’s marbles belong on display in a gift shop or the mainline.

 

So a workshop, viewed from a viewing gallery at York and a return to a more railway themed building would be quite welcome imo…

 

I actually think Steam Swindon does a better job telling the story of railways than York.

 

i have to wonder if a generation growing up Indiana Jones, becoming History students and getting a job down the museum is diluting the expertise required when it comes to niche history like railways. I have detected some snootiness from Museum types towards preservationists deeming them “non professionals”, (and in the case of the twitter tirade on the NRMs own account about 41001 was out right disrespect), and it does make me wonder… especially as returning some looted artifact by a long dead real  “Dr Jones” type takes said “museums professionals”  further from their career expectation, not closer to it… I couldnt see someone being pushed to an NRM posting as being closer to a Jumanji style adventure either and may explain some of the decisions we see but dont make sense to preservationists who make such decisions daily in what is a museum niche…

 

Edited March 1 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

On 27/02/2024 at 18:24, Wheatley said:

The 108 has been split too, I hope they've not been taking advice from the 503 mob...

I beg their pardon, it's parked across a walking route so it's been split to prevent it being blocked. 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Personally I think the British museum title might be better bestowed on celebrating British achievements, of which Railways, and the civil engineering, scientific practices associated to it was Britains gift to the world… they too can be stuffed and mounted like the Greek Marbles, and continue the debate about whether the NRM’s marbles belong on display in a gift shop or the mainline.

I see what you mean but not sure ‘celebrating’ is quite the right word - of course we can and should celebrate the achievements but a museum shouldn’t be universally and uncritically celebratory of everything featured in it.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

looks nice, expensive building, prime real estate, obviously not short of a bob or two, it too has free entry and a gift shop.

Amongst the heritage sector in general (and having worked in the sector but never in the British Museum itself, though I’ve spoken to colleagues who have, or have more inside information), I would describe the British Museum as atypically (almost uniquely) well-funded and well-resourced.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I went to the British Museum last week.

 

I actually had a hard time finding anything British in it.

As I’ve often said. Although having studied Old English literature and Anglo-Saxon history I do like the Sutton Hoo treasure (though I suppose, if you wanted to be especially picky it could be argued that that isn’t technically ‘British’ (as in Brittonic), but ‘English’/Anglo-Saxon).

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

i have to wonder if a generation growing up Indiana Jones, becoming History students and getting a job down the museum is diluting the expertise required when it comes to niche history like railways.

This is a bit of a misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of how people get into the heritage sector these days and how difficult it is to do so in any meaningful or secure way. Many will have a degree (often two), plus vast amounts of either volunteering or paid but relatively low level front of house experience, or both. There is fierce competition and huge numbers of applications for some roles, even though they are often not very well-paid compared to equivalent jobs in other sectors. A relatively high percentage of these also tend to be fixed-term contracts, I think often because they are linked to time-limited funding (the discussion about whether funding bodies should look more at ongoing funding for day-to-day costs rather than always looking at short-term, project-based stuff is probably one for another time). My own experience so far has involved a degree, then a master’s degree (not in Museum Studies etc. as commonly demanded by some job specs, but in a subject that hopefully has some transferable skills) alongside some volunteering, then an internship (fortunately paid in this case), and at this point I have two museum jobs - one front of house which is my main job, the other casual but focused on museum education which is the specific area I want to work in ultimately.

 

The overall point being that to work in museums you do have to really want to, and have a genuine interest in it.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I have detected some snootiness from Museum types towards preservationists deeming them “non professionals”

In some cases though with the NRM I have seen a lot of criticism that can only have come from people without recent experience of working in a museum, e.g. misunderstanding how collections review and deaccession processes work, or the purpose of them, criticism of Wonderlab etc. without understanding the educational role of museums and what this might look like in a modern context, or in particular the insistence from some people that everything in the NRM should be restored to operational condition, regardless of the need to destroy original material in the locos concerned in order to do so. On the latter point, I saw a good post the other day by Anthony Dawson (‘On Historical Lines’ is his blog and the name of his Facebook page - there’s also a lot of good stuff about early railways and railway uniforms, among other things). Too long to post all of it here but the relevant bit is probably largely in this paragraph:

 

 

Also, partly for the reasons described above, the relevant skillset for a lot of museum jobs is not subject-based, so not everyone will be an expert on the specific material within their museum. But they will have the appropriate skills in education, exhibition design, visitor engagement or whatever.

 

More generally, I’d encourage people to read this article (I don’t think it requires a login): https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/people/2024/02/profile-we-can-all-get-dewy-eyed-over-mallard-but-thats-not-helping-us-into-the-future/#msdynttrid=zsS-Xf9p-fo8Rgta5ec7OI7Whz6MplrutLtV1wcW6Ro

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

returning some looted artifact by a long dead real  “Dr Jones” type takes said “museums professionals”  further from their career expectation, not closer to it

In what sense?

 

As for 41001, didn’t the NRM just decline to renew the loan agreement and explain their reasons for this?

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I see what you mean but not sure ‘celebrating’ is quite the right word - of course we can and should celebrate the achievements but a museum shouldn’t be universally and uncritically celebratory of everything featured in it.

 

 

Maybe, i’d argue any object in a museum is a celebration by nature of being on a pedestal to display (be it failure, infamy, surreptitious etc that put it there etc)?

Theres any number of objects removed from display due to historical reviews* that make them no longer suitable to celebrate… Yet there historical value is nonetheless diminished, its just they are no longer suitable for display in the current environment.

* often referred to as going woke, political correctness or scandal etc

 

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

As for 41001, didn’t the NRM just decline to renew the loan agreement and explain their reasons for this?

It definitely felt like disagreement..

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2019/10/nrm-release-statement-on-class-41-locomotive-future.html

 

Things like Wonderlab I dont have an issue with, though they are not my personal taste, I do see their appeal.
 

However the “preservation of original fabric” argument cuts different ways… Ive no objection that some assets should never be restored. But my perception of recent years, is a lack engagement with preservationists with the relevant experience, in preference to paid business, not that theres been much visible new engagement of any type when it comes to restorations in this regard..

If this is indeed the case then the nrm doesnt need a workshop, but it will lose a historical asset / story greater than any single loco… further it will be a quieter place as commercial rates are not cheap.

 

if you cant see it, and its knowledge is undocumented, or inaccessible whats the point ?

This story I found fascinating…

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68452333
 

how is it we have such items, undocumented for 200 years, hidden from public scrutiny and how much more is being held without public knowledge ? 

Edited March 2 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Theres any number of objects removed from display due to historical reviews*

Are there? In most cases they’re actually just re-displayed or re-labelled. The slavery gallery at the Museum of London Docklands for instance - of course it’s not celebrating it, but the material is there and is not censored or removed.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

often referred to as going woke, political correctness

Often referred to as such by reactionaries who don’t understand how historical research works (see the National Trust ‘Colonial Countryside’ project and ludicrously overhyped response from the tabloid press for more of this). Not that this is hugely relevant to the NRM.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

But my perception of recent years, is a lack engagement with preservationists with the relevant experience, in preference to paid business

Possibly because of the timescales involved? (If I’ve understood correctly what you mean in relation to restorations). But then again, how many heritage railways are recording the repairs and changes they make to a loco during overhaul with the level of detail generally required from a curator’s or conservator’s point of view?

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

If this is indeed the case then the nrm doesnt need a workshop, but it will lose a historical asset / story greater than any single loco…

I’m not sure it is a ‘historical asset’ in any direct sense (though some of the individual pieces of equipment from the workshop might be) - it seems to have been designed and used for the work the NRM wanted to do at the time and not, for instance, to specifically recreate historic practices. I always interpreted the decision regarding the workshop as being based on the amount of work it was actually doing. If you’re only going to do one overhaul every few years it probably makes more sense to outsource it, rather than expensively retain the in-house expertise and equipment that will only be used occasionally. Similarly a heritage organisation I used to work for employed freelancers to deliver their schools’ programme - this was perhaps a sensible idea given that it was tied to an exhibition that only ran for about 3 months every year. The counter-argument is obviously that the NRM could make more use of the workshop by taking on outside work, but would there have been space to do this and would it have been worth the commercial risk (admittedly I’m reminded a bit here of the situation that unfolded a few years ago with the engineering business at Llangollen)?

 

In terms of the heritage interpretation potential of a workshop, I’d also quite enjoy being able to see some traditional skills being demonstrated somewhere (like casting wheels etc.) but I’m not sure this necessarily fits in with or relates to the use of a workshop to restore locomotives for main line use or do conservation work, and it’s the sort of thing more associated with places like the Black Country Living Museum than an indoor museum gallery environment like the NRM mostly is. It is also a bit specific to steam locomotive construction rather than railway history overall.

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

if you cant see it, and its knowledge is undocumented, or inaccessible whats the point ?

This story I found fascinating…

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68452333
 

how is it we have such items, undocumented for 200 years, hidden from public scrutiny and how much more is being held without public knowledge ? 

I agree, that is fascinating, but as well as cataloguing and digitising/photographing their collections and making these records available to the public (which many museums and archives are already doing anyway, as in the article you linked to), I’m not sure what else you’re suggesting these organisations should be doing. Not everything can be on public display at the same time, and some objects are unsuitable for long-term (or occasionally, any) display because they are fragile, or made out of delicate or hazardous materials. 

[Northmoor]

38 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Possibly because of the timescales involved? (If I’ve understood correctly what you mean in relation to restorations). But then again, how many heritage railways are recording the repairs and changes they make to a loco during overhaul with the level of detail generally required from a curator’s or conservator’s point of view?

My enthusiasts complain about the NRM not restoring this, that or the other to working order and not releasing locomotives for others to do so, but unfortunately the record of outside bodies doing so isn't perfect. 

 

When the AC Loco Group took on 84001, we were very diligent at adhering to the agreement and recorded everything we did, what was removed (even some chunks of multiple layers of paint) were retained, clearly documented and regular reports sent.  A couple of years into the loan, I met Richard Gibbon at an NRM event and he told me that two organisations were setting the bar for working with the NRM on "borrowed" items: the Bluebell Railway and the AC Loco Group.  I was really proud to for our group to be in that company.