Will the NRM get a new workshop?

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I’m not sure it is a ‘historical asset’ in any direct sense (though some of the individual pieces of equipment from the workshop might be) - it seems to have been designed and used for the work the NRM wanted to do at the time and not, for instance, to specifically recreate historic practices. I always interpreted the decision regarding the workshop as being based on the amount of work it was actually doing. If you’re only going to do one overhaul every few years it probably makes more sense to outsource it, rather than expensively retain the in-house expertise and equipment that will only be used occasionally.

A locomotive isnt a dinosaur, painting or a tablet.

its a moving piece of industrial machinery.

 

I can go to any number of car museums, and view pits, restoration shops from some viewing angle.

Several museums have some form of preparation lab which again have some viewing angle and  can show collections being prepared… be it art, geology restoration, or any other.

 

They are seen as part of the education and back scene process.

i’m not sure why a railway museum cannot have this ?

 

I don't think York is the place for an overhaul at the scale of boiler repairs and wheel casting. it was a loco depot historically, not that much of that fabric remains*.. and most people would never know this now…funny how fabric only applies selectively hmm ?

 

As I said earlier.. I think Steam Swindon tells the story of railways from all angles much better than York, and in a context where the building fabric remains in tact too, making it much more part of the compelling story.

 

… but dis/reassembly, repainting (conservation) etc is a regular museum activity of all ilks… to have nothing at all, leaves nrm at whim of contractors/corporates,  if they've already pushed those unprofessional enthusiasts, many whom are ex-BR types who looked after these locos daily for decades away as well… which means not just losing the knowledge, they lose the stories too.. anyone left knowing about compounding the MR 1000 ?

 

I wonder if asking for a workshop is the right term, maybe asking for a conservation area, with a viewing gallery would resonate better ?

* Blackpool Rigby road tramdepot is about to under go “conservation to preserve its fabric” too.. by demolishing the whole site, binning most of its interior and building a white washed wall, air conditioned factory of fun too.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

When the AC Loco Group took on 84001, we were very diligent at adhering to the agreement and recorded everything we did, what was removed (even some chunks of multiple layers of paint) were retained, clearly documented and regular reports sent.  A couple of years into the loan, I met Richard Gibbon at an NRM event and he told me that two organisations were setting the bar for working with the NRM on "borrowed" items: the Bluebell Railway and the AC Loco Group.  I was really proud to for our group to be in that company.

That all sounds really good - am I right in thinking though that 84001 can’t actually be returned to working order though? I thought  it was mainly classes 86/87/89 they were actually planning to operate. Not surprised to see the Bluebell or the ACLG mentioned though as they always seem very focused and professional.

 

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

My enthusiasts complain about the NRM not restoring this, that or the other to working order and not releasing locomotives for others to do so, but unfortunately the record of outside bodies doing so isn't perfect. 

But also in some cases restoration to working order isn’t the best option for the item concerned, whereas some enthusiasts seem to be working on the assumption that it always is.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

but dis/reassembly, repainting (conservation) etc is a regular museum activity of all ilks… to have nothing at all, leaves nrm at whim of contractors/corporates,  if they've already pushed those unprofessional enthusiasts, many whom are ex-BR types who looked after these locos daily for decades away as well… which means not just losing the knowledge, they lose the stories too.. anyone left knowing about compounding the MR 1000 ?

 

I wonder if asking for a workshop is the right term, maybe asking for a conservation area, with a viewing gallery would resonate better ?

I don’t think they’ve said they won’t have a conservation studio, just that they won’t have a workshop capable of doing full overhauls to working order as previously.

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

not that much of that fabric remains*.. and most people would never know this now…funny how fabric only applies selectively hmm ?

While I’d like to see only reversible modifications to the building, historic elements still visible etc. I’m not sure it’s possible for every building to do that while still being useable as a museum.

[Wheatley]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

how is it we have such items, undocumented for 200 years, hidden from public scrutiny and how much more is being held without public knowledge ? 

About 75% of some national collections, maybe more, that's why you see temporary and rotating displays. Shildon (NRM) and Cosford (RAF Museum) both started off as reserve collections. 

 

At least the NRM put a significant amount off its reserve collection and small arteifacts  on display, others don't have the space. Or waste the space ( yes you IWM North).

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

At least the NRM put a significant amount off its reserve collection and small arteifacts  on display, others don't have the space.

Which I think is especially impressive given that large objects like locos can’t be rotated in and out of store very easily.

[6990WitherslackHall]

I visited the museum yesterday and asked one of the volunteers if they would be getting a new workshop. He said that the museum currently don't have any plans to.

 

So that'll be a no. 

 

In more positive news, I was also told that the balcony overlooking the real railway should reopen sometime this month.

Edited March 3 by 6990WitherslackHall

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I visited the museum yesterday and asked one of the volunteers if they would be getting a new workshop. He said that the museum currently don't have any plans to.

 

So that'll be a no. 

But that does also raise the question of how ‘a workshop’ is being defined (in terms of its capabilities - is a conservation studio ‘a workshop’ for instance?). I’d also expect such a facility (even just for conservation in the case of large objects) to be located at Locomotion anyway, given that that site was (iirc) originally established as a museum store before it became a proper museum with public opening.

[Northmoor]

20 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

That all sounds really good - am I right in thinking though that 84001 can’t actually be returned to working order though? I thought  it was mainly classes 86/87/89 they were actually planning to operate. Not surprised to see the Bluebell or the ACLG mentioned though as they always seem very focused and professional.

84001 could be restored to working order - any of the early ACs could with enough time and effort - but you would have to build a private 25kV track to run it on.  To be fit to run on Network Rail infrastructure would require so much modification that it would barely be recognisable as a Class 84, which would slightly defeat the object of restoration.

 

The later Classes had a form of grandfather rights - in fact after preservation of ours, other 86s remained in service for some years - having operated in the post-privatisation era.

[009 micro modeller]

On 03/03/2024 at 10:03, Northmoor said:

84001 could be restored to working order - any of the early ACs could with enough time and effort - but you would have to build a private 25kV track to run it on.  To be fit to run on Network Rail infrastructure would require so much modification that it would barely be recognisable as a Class 84, which would slightly defeat the object of restoration.

Could it run at somewhere like Old Dalby, or on a branch line that is electrified but separate from the rest of the network?

 

I was surprised as I thought the idea was that classes 81-85 would be restored only as static exhibits due to the difficulty of finding somewhere for them to run.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Could it run at somewhere like Old Dalby,

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Network-Rail-RIDC-Price-List-2023-24.pdf

 

£21k per day to hire Old Dalby. That's a lot of tickets ...

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Could it run at somewhere like Old Dalby, or on a branch line that is electrified but separate from the rest of the network?

 

I was surprised as I thought the idea was that classes 81-85 would be restored only as static exhibits due to the difficulty of finding somewhere for them to run.

Yes, they probably could operate at Old Dalby but we've never been deluded enough to ever think we will.  It's not just meeting Network Rail approvals that are the problem; the cost of putting in the necessary modern fire suppression systems - the old ACs did like to burst into flames every now and again - and duplicated systems for reliability, would mean a decent six-figure sum per loco to get them operating.  The economics would be nonsense, you'd be lucky to fill one train with people for each loco restored, so unless there are a lot more enthusiasts out there prepared to fork out £1000/ticket, five times over, than we've always suspected, the Old ladies will remain statics.  That's not to say they can't be made to make noises when you connect them to a power supply......

 

 

[Coach bogie]

It is a pity that government/rail operators do not have the same forward thinking as New South Wales.

 

Deja vu of Swindon A shop potential as a preservation workshop.

 

ABOUT CHULLORA HERITAGE HUB

Transport Heritage NSW is partnering with the NSW Government to deliver a new storage facility for heritage assets at Chullora.

The Chullora Heritage Hub will enable many opportunities including:

Proper storage for the collection including rolling stock and small objects, providing much needed protection from deterioration.

Large workshop for restoration projects and ongoing maintenance.

Easy access to the main line network for more efficient heritage train operations.

Potential for other recognised heritage transport groups to have a presence at the new hub.

Knowledge sharing and skill development.

In the longer term, public access for special occasions.

 

 

Watch the video

 

https://www.thnsw.com.au/chullora

 

Mike Wiltshire

[adb968008]

So old dalby…

 

Whilst out of reach for AC, if someone wanted to do a few higher than 25mph speed spins with a diesel or steam loco that hithero has no chance of a mainline return and sell seats, would that be an option ?

 

Thinking like a Warship, Hymek, 44  ? On the steam front maybe 9f, s160,  prarie etc

 

300 a train x 1 per hour, 8 trains is only £8+ change… obviously you need to hire stock, move it  etc.

But chance to do 75 with a Hymek doesnt come everyday.

Edited March 16 by adb968008

[Matt37268]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So old dalby…

 

Whilst out of reach for AC, if someone wanted to do a few higher than 25mph speed spins with a diesel or steam loco that hithero has no chance of a mainline return and sell seats, would that be an option ?

 

Thinking like a Warship, Hymek, 44  ? On the steam front maybe 9f, s160,  prarie etc

 

300 a train x 1 per hour, 8 trains is only £8+ change… obviously you need to hire stock, move it  etc.

But chance to do 75 with a Hymek doesnt come everyday.

Would a Hymek or other locomotive owner be happy to operate at that sort of speed? 
Your making a lot of assumptions about several things.

I’d be rather interested as to what our friends at the ORR might have to say…

 

Not a Hymek but the chance to have something similar in the shape of 1015 is happening again later this year, jus’ Sayin’…🧐

[Wheatley]

7 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Would a Hymek or other locomotive owner be happy to operate at that sort of speed? 
Your making a lot of assumptions about several things.

I’d be rather interested as to what our friends at the ORR might have to say ...

Operating a 90mph loco at 75mph on a line certified for 125mph ? They wouldn't bat an eyelid, it's a test track after all. 

 

It's the "carrying fare paying passengers" bit which would pique their interest, I've no idea how that would work! 

[009 micro modeller]

39 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

It's the "carrying fare paying passengers" bit which would pique their interest, I've no idea how that would work! 

That’s what I thought - surely it wouldn’t be allowed if the stock used is only normally approved for operation at much lower speeds? Regardless of the speed the locos were originally designed for I thought the more relevant aspect would be the current maintenance/inspection regime?

 

To clarify, do you pay to use the overhead wires/conductor rails at Old Dalby, thus making electric traction more expensive, or are we just assuming that a steam or diesel operation would generate more interest from potential visitors and therefore more income?

[Wheatley]

It all depends where Old Dalby sits within ROGS and what their Safety Management System allows them to do. It's an experimental establishment so I presume it's written in quite broad generic terms with a separate safety validation for each individual project. 

 

The booking form does say that electricity is extra, on top of the £21k !

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Operating a 90mph loco at 75mph on a line certified for 125mph ? They wouldn't bat an eyelid, it's a test track after all. 

 

It's the "carrying fare paying passengers" bit which would pique their interest, I've no idea how that would work! 

I have an idea that it's not the easiest stretch of track to see from the lineside*, so perhaps with access to particular viewing points sold as if it were a photo charter and you could have a day of run-pasts,  Lay on catering and some seating and you could sell 100s of tickets for £50 each no problem.

 

*Farnborough Airshow used to tie screens onto the boundary fence to prevent viewing from the A327, not to force people to pay for tickets, but to  discourage them from wandering back and forth across the road without looking.

[daveyb]

This topic has intrigued me.

 

As someone who hasn't been to the NRM on probably 30 years and the Science Museum in even longer I won't comment on their decisions (but I haven't agreed with many of those I have seen publicised) but on the questions about museums vs 'enthusiast's operations.

 

Almost everything the has been said in this thread about how museum are run, by whom they are run, for whom they are run and why they are run is the complete opposite of what I would like from a museum. 

 

Not using mechanical things because they might break is neither good custodianship nor useful nor interesting; staring at stuffed animals would not make zoos very interesting (and I know they're not popular today, either).  Having museums crammed full of people with two+ degrees and a masters at every shiny display case is what leads to a loss of practical experience and if anything, deters development of STEM in schools.  You end up with a load of academics discussing why this particular 2700hp - 3300hp monster was different to the other ones when all they really need to do is switch it on, but they academic'ed out all the practical and can't turn it on!

 

I grew up around museums where I got dirty.  I visited Clapham as a very small child and got dirty in the empty tender of an A4 then saw the earliest elements of the NRM a few years later.  I went to Dinorwic and climbed disused incline planes and slag heaps to sit on rusty old wagons, I had my eyes rinsed with tap water at the Bluebell when I didn't listen and got smuts in my eyes.  I went to school where we had a metalwork classroom with lathes and mills and a forge - that were usually empty because we were all told of the importance of Latin and Maths.  I hated history.  They took all the interesting stuff and ignored it to talk about medieval cooking and dress. 

 

I don't want my Museum to be educational - that's a school job - I want it to remind me of the past and illustrate the dull stuff I was force to listen to, to write in a book and never touch again.  I want my machines to move.  I want to know how they made it work; like to old guy splitting slates at LLechwedd showed me in 1974, or the drivers oiling up the rods at Bold after the Rainhill run (in the rain)in 1979.  I want it to demonstrate what I am supposed to know (though how I'm supposed to know, I don't know, I'm too busy trying to fathom out Excel).

 

There is a Science Museum video on You Tube showing how they moved a tram from a hanger to the new 'CHE storage facility' (another, newer, hanger this time with air con).  They moved a tram about a mile across and airfield and bang on about how much painstaking planning was involved.  First part of the day of the move, they couldn't open the hanger door because nobody thought to check the runners or guides!  The boys from Alleley's just stood there shaking their heads!  At the height of last summer I was arranging the move 25000 tonnes of gravel a day past 120 tonne machines on low loaders.  On public roads.  Every day.  For two months.  The Science Museum looked a trifle daft in my opinion - be practical and get on with it!  Very little need for academia there.

 

We have two museums quite near me that hire out their indoor display areas for functions such as weddings and staff Xmas parties.  They push the exhibits to the sides, lay the room with tables and hold the function.  Up to about 500 people.   It's how they pay the bills. These museums have moved complete buildings hundreds of kilometers to display typical life over the last century.  They have re-placed them on new foundations, subtly re-wired them and now they provide a living example of local provincial life from the last 150 years that works!  The ice cream is sold in the general store that is made locally.  The sweet shop makes the sweets.  The grain elevator has grain in it and stores and distributes 8 different types of grain into rail cars from a 1955 Ford 5 ton truck that delivers it.  The train rides circulate around the site, and in the evening they do a dinner train.  That's a museum!  And I know there museums like that in Britain, I've been to some of them (Blist's Hill, Black Country, Beamish, Amberley, etc).

 

The Childrens' Gallery in the basement of the Science Museum (underneath the Deltic and Caerphilly Castle was great... It was fun and it was a relief for my parents to buy a cup of tea, but we looked at the exhibits first and there were few exhibits there, just stuff that worked and probably and explanation - I don't know I never listened!

 

If you want better STEM in school, stop some of the rubbish that clouds the curricula and get back to basics - an entirely different topic.  BUT, I cannot think how lucky I was to learn Three Blind Mice on the recorder every time I wire a plug or do my tax return!  I'm off to the garage to do some STEM on my motorcycles... 

 

 

Edited March 16 by daveyb
spellig and gramma

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

Not using mechanical things because they might break is neither good custodianship nor useful nor interesting

This seems a bit disingenuous - some objects (locos in this case) are a more valuable historical record in their conserved, static form than if they were restored to working order (but some are better off restored - it’s not one size fits all). As an extreme example, the original Rocket is considered, apparently completely uncontroversially, to be too fragile and too significant to restore to working order, but there are replicas so it doesn’t need to be. Meanwhile, at Statfold Barn I could see both original and new-build quarry Hunslets running, which is great, but also upstairs in the roundhouse building are some that are static and conserved, still pretty much in the condition they left the quarry; the latter are also fascinating as they’re effectively a time capsule. It is good that we are able to experience both. I’m not sure the comparison with zoos and stuffed animals really applies here.

 

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

Having museums crammed full of people with two+ degrees and a masters at every shiny display case is what leads to a loss of practical experience and if anything, deters development of STEM in schools. 

Of course we should have a variety of different backgrounds and skills in museums, and I lament the amount of credentialism in the sector, but why wouldn’t academia be relevant? It’s a way of doing research into museum subjects and is especially needed in museums that are often visited by researchers or higher education groups. Also it seems to be increasingly the case that people working in museums have to have a degree or two and work their way up (rather than just one or the other, as in some other sectors), which, while not always a good thing, does mean that people have plenty of practical experience as well.

 

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I went to Dinorwic and climbed disused incline planes and slag heaps to sit on rusty old wagons

I’ve enjoyed exploring the remains of Dinorwic over the years - probably explains my interest in both narrow gauge railways, and heritage more generally.

 

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I hated history.  They took all the interesting stuff and ignored it to talk about medieval cooking and dress. 

Isn’t this just your personal view of what you find interesting? Besides which, if it relates to studying history at school I’m not sure how relevant it is to museums.

 

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I don't want my Museum to be educational - that's a school job - I want it to remind me of the past and illustrate the dull stuff I was force to listen to, to write in a book and never touch again.

Again though, a bit of a narrow view of what ‘educational’ can mean. And museum education is different from school anyway - the whole point is exactly as you say, to bring it to life and actually see real artefacts and places rather than just reading a rather dry paragraph about them in a textbook (one of my favourite things I’ve done while working in museums is running object handling sessions). It reminds me of that piece of “research” (picked up as a newspaper article) from a few years ago showing that ‘museum visits do not improve GCSE results’, as if that was the main point (though it’s possible they may have been more focused on individual visits, rather than school trips). There was a response to it. And play-based learning is starting to become a thing in museums, which looks very different from what is typically thought of as ‘education’.

 

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

There is a Science Museum video on You Tube showing how they moved a tram from a hanger to the new 'CHE storage facility' (another, newer, hanger this time with air con).  They moved a tram about a mile across and airfield and bang on about how much painstaking planning was involved.  First part of the day of the move, they couldn't open the hanger door because nobody thought to check the runners or guides!  The boys from Alleley's just stood there shaking their heads!  At the height of last summer I was arranging the move 25000 tonnes of gravel a day past 120 tonne machines on low loaders.  On public roads.  Every day.  For two months.  The Science Museum looked a trifle daft in my opinion - be practical and get on with it!  Very little need for academia there.

The objects involved will probably have a conservation plan, will need to completely avoid being damaged, and won’t necessarily have been moved for ages. It’s a bit different from moving gravel. And I get the impression that it’s hyped up a little in those kinds of videos to try and make it entertaining for more people. But based on the training that I’ve done around moving, handling and repacking handling objects (which are separate from the ‘proper’ collection anyway, and where there is an acceptance that they might get damaged during the session), I can imagine that similar considerations would lead to a fairly complex process for moving large objects.

 

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

We have two museums quite near me that hire out their indoor display areas for functions such as weddings and staff Xmas parties.  They push the exhibits to the sides, lay the room with tables and hold the function.  Up to about 500 people.   It's how they pay the bills. These museums have moved complete buildings hundreds of kilometers to display typical life over the last century.  They have re-placed them on new foundations, subtly re-wired them and now they provide a living example of local provincial life from the last 150 years that works!  The ice cream is sold in the general store that is made locally.  The sweet shop makes the sweets.  The grain elevator has grain in it and stores and distributes 8 different types of grain into rail cars from a 1955 Ford 5 ton truck that delivers it.  The train rides circulate around the site, and in the evening they do a dinner train.  That's a museum!  And I know there museums like that in Britain, I've been to some of them (Blist's Hill, Black Country, Beamish, Amberley, etc).

They are ‘living museums’, a different way of making a museum with both advantages and disadvantages compared to more “conventional” museums. I think there’s room for both. Another one that I like is the Chiltern Open Air Museum.

 

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

If you want better STEM in school, stop some of the rubbish that clouds the curricula and get back to basics - an entirely different topic. 

I don’t think museums are really in a position to particularly influence the National Curriculum (though there is obviously a need to link to it to provide something that works for visiting school groups). But in the primary curriculum at least, some parts are quite broadly defined and some schools have actually chosen the specific topics studied to allow them to use what is available in local museums. The STEM focus at the NRM comes partly from it being a Science Museum Group site; it might be good to retain a bit of social history as well.

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Operating a 90mph loco at 75mph on a line certified for 125mph ? They wouldn't bat an eyelid, it's a test track after all. 

 

It's the "carrying fare paying passengers" bit which would pique their interest, I've no idea how that would work! 

Thats why I asked the question, railtours have been allowed at old dalby. The track is obviously mainline standard.

So its really the loco & speed thats the thought, would it be possible ?

boarding and access would be another to consider.

 

if someone went with a mainline registered coach set and a 66 I dont think there would be an issue….
https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/2955/uk-railtours-heads-for-old-dalby-test-track-in-december/

 

The question is the loco… and HNRC has been running a non mainline registered 47714 for years at variable speeds in association with such test work..

 

so why not something more interesting as a unique event ?.. i’d love a pair of 25’s at speed again, or say GWS’s 2999.

Edited March 17 by adb968008

[Peak]

On 25/02/2024 at 17:52, 009 micro modeller said:

Refer to this map: https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/NRM Map Update_Feb23_WEB.pdf

 

If the old one was where Wonderlab is, I think it’s on the opposite side from the South Yard (which is next to the miniature railway).

 

I think the new workshop in South Yard will be more than just a conversation studio.

[Michael Hodgson]

11 hours ago, daveyb said:

As someone who hasn't been to the NRM on probably 30 years and the Science Museum in even longer I won't comment on their decisions (but I haven't agreed with many of those I have seen publicised) but on the questions about museums vs 'enthusiast's operations.

 

The Science Museum decided their displays were out of date, and it's all about "experiences" these days.  So if you want to see the Science Museum's railway signalling exhibits these days, you have to visit John Jolly's museum at Mangapps Farm when they're open. 

[Bucoops]

47 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The Science Museum decided their displays were out of date, and it's all about "experiences" these days.  So if you want to see the Science Museum's railway signalling exhibits these days, you have to visit John Jolly's museum at Mangapps Farm when they're open. 

 

Still gutted I missed "raiding" the Science Museum by one week due to Uni to get it all out.

[Matt37268]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thats why I asked the question, railtours have been allowed at old dalby. The track is obviously mainline standard.

So its really the loco & speed thats the thought, would it be possible ?

boarding and access would be another to consider.

 

if someone went with a mainline registered coach set and a 66 I dont think there would be an issue….
https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/2955/uk-railtours-heads-for-old-dalby-test-track-in-december/

 

The question is the loco… and HNRC has been running a non mainline registered 47714 for years at variable speeds in association with such test work..

 

so why not something more interesting as a unique event ?.. i’d love a pair of 25’s at speed again, or say GWS’s 2999.

Paperwork? I’d suggest you have a look at some of the hoops the GC and SVR have had to jump through to do when they do something similar with the higher speed testing on their respective approved sites. 

If you really want to see it happen I’d suggest you start playing the Euro Millions. 
Sorry to be negative but for what you want your going to need some serious bunce and it’s going to involve a hell of a lot of hard work and unsexy stuff before you can even think of marketing it and selling tickets. 
You might want to see/ride behind a Saint, pair of Rats or Hymek but you’re going to have to convince a lot of people to put their hands in their pockets.