DCC definitions... an update required?

[Pendle Forest]

With the recent rise in manufacturers 'going it alone' and moving away from what could nominally be expected from terms such as 'DCC Ready', I'm musing on if it's the right time for a re-define of terms.

 

DCC SOUND

Fitted with manufacturers preferred decoder including sound

 

DCC ONBOARD

Fitted with manufacturers preferred decoder not including sound

 

DCC READY

Not fitted with a decoder but any can be used for all functions to work correctly. 

 

DCC FUNCTIONAL

Not fitted with a decoder and requires a decoder to be mapped for all functions to work correctly

 

I think the last one is particularly important.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Pendle Forest said:

DCC FUNCTIONAL

Not fitted with a decoder and requires a decoder to be mapped for all functions to work correctly

 

I think the last one is particularly important.

It is to diesel and electric modellers. Steam locos are typically not bristling w functions. 

[DaveArkley]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

DCC FUNCTIONAL

Not fitted with a decoder and requires a decoder to be mapped for all functions to work correctly

I'd have thought this was self evident, if there's no decoder fitted, than the user is free to choose to fit anything, and whatever they fit will need to be programmed.

[BroadLeaves]

I suspect it's a bit more nuanced than that in reality. Lots of modern locomotives come "DCC ready", with a DCC socket and blanking plate, but also with a speaker pre-installed. As soon as I put a non-sound capable decoder in there (which I may do because I just don't like sound, I can't find a suitable sound file, cost reasons etc), then I won't get sound, so given the strict definition above, a manufacturer couldn't mark it as "DCC Ready", since not every function will work with every decoder.

However, I agree it's a problem. I don't have either, so can't comment directly, but reading some of the posts, it appears to me that the Accurascale Manor and class 37 "work best" with Accurascale's decoder and that some functions (interior lighting, stay alive) do not work with other quality decoders such as those from Zimo. If that's the case (and perhaps @McC or @Accurascale Fran can comment on whether I've got that right or not - happy to be corrected if I haven't ) then I don't have a problem with that at all, with one exception - I don't see any mention of "this loco works best with" on the web site, so that I can make a more informed purchasing decision.

 

For example, if I buy an Accurascale Manor in DCC-Ready format ( https://www.accurascale.com/collections/gwr-7800-manor-class/products/7810-draycott-manor-br-manor-class ), which is listed as having a "PowerPack capacitor bank for uninterrupted power", with no caveat about requiring factory-fitted DCC, will that PowerPack work with any decoder I purchase, provided the decoder has stay-alive functionality? I suspect not, but the web page doesn't say either way.

Staying with Accurascale, looking at, for example, their class 37 ( https://www.accurascale.com/collections/class-37/products/class-37-br-green-w-full-yellow-ends-d6956 ) the Lighting and DCC tab is, to my reading, not clear at all. Which lighting functions require the Accurascale decoder and which will work with another manufacturer's decoder? 

For these examples, what I would like to see before purchase is a list of the decoders that the locomotive has been tested with, and which functions work (or not) with each decoder. Now, I accept it's impractical to test with every single decoder on the market, but presumably the model has been tested with more than just the manufacturer's OEMd one, and presumably those results were recorded, so that's what gets published as part of the DCC specification for each model. 

[DaveArkley]

2 minutes ago, BroadLeaves said:

but presumably the model has been tested with more than just the manufacturer's OEMd one

I think that's a massive assumption

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

DCC FUNCTIONAL

 

Rapidly followed by numerous questions of "Why doesn't mine function?".

[McC]

If anything it makes a case for only shipping models DCC fitted and DCC Sound fitted? Both options support DC running and both provide full functionality?

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, McC said:

If anything it makes a case for only shipping models DCC fitted and DCC Sound fitted? Both options support DC running and both provide full functionality?

 

It certainly does if, as manufacturer, your customers are buying mainly sound/fitted products but maybe not so if your customer base are those who are DCC unfriendly (normally trad steam) who would think you'd fleeced them of a tenner. ;)

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

DCC READY

Not fitted with a decoder but any can be used for all functions to work correctly. 

 

DCC FUNCTIONAL

Not fitted with a decoder and requires a decoder to be mapped for all functions to work correctly

 

Perhaps is worth asking who would want these options?  If you want DCC Sound, why not buy the DCC Sound option?  If you want the full range or DCC functions, why not buy the DCC Fitted (or DCC Onboard) version?  Ultimately, the market for DCC Ready is likely to be primarily the DC analogue users who don't care about DCC functionality (or those who don't like the locomotive manufacturer's choice of decoder, in which case the 'faff' of setting up their own decoder of choice should surely be the responsibility of the purchaser).

[Harlequin]

17 minutes ago, McC said:

If anything it makes a case for only shipping models DCC fitted and DCC Sound fitted? Both options support DC running and both provide full functionality?

 

We all have our preferred brands of decoder. How would you ensure that a model was fitted with the brand we want? That's what "DCC Ready" is for.

 

[Kaput]

12 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

If you want DCC Sound, why not buy the DCC Sound option?

 

Probably because you want to be able to choose which sound file to use.

[McC]

6 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

We all have our preferred brands of decoder. How would you ensure that a model was fitted with the brand we want? That's what "DCC Ready" is for.

 

 

Since decoders are ‘simple’ enough components with little real difference between them is it a little akin to having a preferred brand of hifi or similar? Does it really matter if the actual functionality is all ‘out of the box’ so the decoder maker is abstracted away? It’s feasible to ‘build in’ a decoder to the pcb or leave it pluggable for under £10 these days. Would DC only users object to paying £179 say rather than £169 to have a decoder come as standard 

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, BroadLeaves said:

For example, if I buy an Accurascale Manor in DCC-Ready format ( https://www.accurascale.com/collections/gwr-7800-manor-class/products/7810-draycott-manor-br-manor-class ), which is listed as having a "PowerPack capacitor bank for uninterrupted power", with no caveat about requiring factory-fitted DCC, will that PowerPack work with any decoder I purchase, provided the decoder has stay-alive functionality? I suspect not, but the web page doesn't say either way.

If the decoder is a e.g. Next 18 or Plux 22 the terminals for stay alive should be on the decoder as it is part of the specification. If the manufacturer provides a power bank it should be usable.

If you are paying £200+ for a loco why skimp on a suitable decoder?

 

 

 

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, McC said:

 

Since decoders are ‘simple’ enough components with little real difference between them is it a little akin to having a preferred brand of hifi or similar? Does it really matter if the actual functionality is all ‘out of the box’ so the decoder maker is abstracted away? It’s feasible to ‘build in’ a decoder to the pcb or leave it pluggable for under £10 these days. Would DC only users object to paying £179 say rather than £169 to have a decoder come as standard 

I would object to "DCC fitted" and I am a DCC user.

Decoders are not all the same

[MichaelE]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

It is to diesel and electric modellers. Steam locos are typically not bristling w functions. 

 

But they tend to be bristling with sounds. 

[Harlequin]

9 minutes ago, McC said:

 

Since decoders are ‘simple’ enough components with little real difference between them is it a little akin to having a preferred brand of hifi or similar? Does it really matter if the actual functionality is all ‘out of the box’ so the decoder maker is abstracted away? It’s feasible to ‘build in’ a decoder to the pcb or leave it pluggable for under £10 these days. Would DC only users object to paying £179 say rather than £169 to have a decoder come as standard 

 

Decoders are not yet at the stage where they're all "good enough" for the average user. Some brands are definitely better at certain tasks than others (and some are unfortunately still rubbish).

 

There's also the question of the ability to change the decoder at home if it fails or if a newer better version is released. (For instance sound playback being upgraded from 8bit to 16bit.)

 

Can't speak for others about the price difference but some would surely see it as another unwanted and annoying technological overhead.

 

Edited February 18 by Harlequin

[McC]

4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Decoders are not yet at the stage where they're all "good enough" for the average user. Some brands are definitely better at certain tasks than others (and some are unfortunately still rubbish).

 

 

Agree. Does that not place the argument back in favour of fitted a quality decoder that is good enough as standard? 

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, McC said:

 

Agree. Does that not place the argument back in favour of fitted a quality decoder that is good enough as standard? 

No.

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, McC said:

 

Agree. Does that not place the argument back in favour of fitted a quality decoder that is good enough as standard? 

 

Er, but everyone's definition of "good enough" is different.

 

For me, "Good enough" means Zimo. Could you get a licence to fit Zimo decoders as standard?

 

If some revolutionary new decoder came out that rapidly became the new minimum "good enough" standard then locos with built-in decoders could become albatrosses for their owners. (And any held in stock, too.)

 

 

A sensible approach that would cover all bases would be to build in a simple decoder but also provide a socket and a means of switching the built-in one out of circuit.

 

[DaveArkley]

9 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

A sensible approach that would cover all bases would be to build in a simple decoder but also provide a socket and a means of switching the built-in one out of circuit.

 

Can't see that being viable on an N gauge loco

[Vecchio]

I suppose trouble is starting where one manufacturer uses also logic functions (needs extra electronics for functions that consume current), while others have all function outputs amplified to  100mA... I don't write who is who, some readers may guess it.  

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I'm not sure a definition of DCC READY as 

'Not fitted with a decoder but any can be used for all functions to work correctly.'

quite covers it as there can be locos with more functions than some decoders have.

Also the amount of space in the loco and the current requirements limits which decoders can be fitted.

Also there are lots of different DCC decoder connectors some of which are incompatible with one another.

 

As to another reply about all DCC decoders being DC compatible is not quite true as some decoders have problems with some PWM controllers, including Hornby HM7000 decoders which can stop working. Also DC layouts with high voltage track cleaners probably damage DCC decoders.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

For me, "Good enough" means Zimo. Could you get a licence to fit Zimo decoders as standard?

But not my first choice as their speed linearity is not as good as Lenz, which is important for me.

[melmerby]

49 minutes ago, NIK said:

Also DC layouts with high voltage track cleaners probably damage DCC decoders.

I would say definitely damage DCC decoders.

[Harlequin]

18 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But not my first choice as their speed linearity is not as good as Lenz, which is important for me.

That exactly illustrates the problem with built-in decoders - someone would always be unhappy with them.