Lacathedrale Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) I've got a shelf above my desk about 4'6 x 13" and I've been mulling over what to put there. I have just got my larger 00 mainline passenger terminus layout to an operational state and that needs to settle for a while before I do anything else to it. I had considered some 3mmFS since it's been a long term interest and a short term, fairly self-contained project seems like a good opportunity, but despite the limited scope I just don't have the large blocks of time dedicated that it really deserves right now. I still do want to have a bit of railway in my office, though - the shelf is just a wasteland of half-printed parts and boxes of paint, so it needs SOMETHING. As massive fan of the real-life Talylynn, Corris and Ffestiniog and recently having enjoyed George Williamson's fascinating video series on building a perio-Corris diorama, I wondered if there might be some mileage in it - a combination of ready-to-run and kit-built with a focus on scenery and weathering and a continuous run. The major issue looks like it's going to be the return loops. While I'm OK with the layout protruding dogbone-style beyond the shelf edge, I'd rather it didn't - and so that means a radius of about 5-5.5" maximum in order there's a bit of space for scenics before hitting the baseboard edge. Is this feasible, or should I really be looking at making the baseboard wider around the reverse curves? I am quite happy to foregoe the double-fairlies and larger stock (though the Fairlie would be a right win if it were compatible) Edited February 20 by Lacathedrale 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Keith Addenbrooke Posted February 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19 Ultra-minimum radius narrow gauge layouts do get built, so my suggestion would be to do a bit of experimenting to see what it might look like, and what runs. Modified couplings are often cited as a necessity in these circumstances, something to bear in mind. While the layouts I’m thinking of are well made and fun to watch, making them look realistic (instead of toy like) can be the challenge. I guess one key question is to determine which is the top priority: 1. Something (anything) to use the shelf? Or… 2. I really want a Narrow Gauge Layout. If it won’t fit the shelf, I’ll modify the shelf, or build it for elsewhere. Or… 3. I’d like a Narrow Gauge layout, but only if I can get a continuous run on my shelf. The other key question is what happens to the things on the shelf - my first thought would be tidy it up: Paint keeps better in tins rather than boxes, for lots of reasons. Not sure what a half-printed part is? (I’d guess 3D printed, but what is the other half…?) Just some thoughts, Keith. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 11 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said: I've got a shelf above my desk about 4'6 x 13" and I've been mulling over what to put there. I have just got my larger 00 mainline passenger terminus layout to an operational state and that needs to settle for a while before I do anything else to it. I had considered some 3mmFS since it's been a long term interest and a short term, fairly self-contained project seems like a good opportunity, but despite the limited scope I just don't have the large blocks of time dedicated that it really deserves right now. I still do want to have a bit of railway in my office, though - the shelf is just a wasteland of half-printed parts and boxes of paint, so it needs SOMETHING. As massive fan of the real-life Talylynn, Corris and Ffestiniog and recently having enjoyed George Williamson's fascinating video series on building a perio-Corris diorama, I wondered if there might be some mileage in it - a combination of ready-to-run and kit-built with a focus on scenery and weathering and a continuous run. The major issue looks like it's going to be the return loops. While I'm OK with the layout protruding dogbone-style beyond the shelf edge, I'd rather it didn't - and so that means a radius of about 5-5.5" maximum in order there's a bit of space for scenics before hitting the baseboard edge. Is this feasible, or should I really be looking at making the baseboard wider around the reverse curves? I am quite happy to foregoe the double-fairlies and larger stock (though the Fairlie would be a right win if it were compatible) A few considerations: - the Kato 11-103 and similar will go round curves of about 3” or 4” radius (despite the seemingly long wheelbase - possibly something to do with how the back-to-back measurements are as supplied). - Eggerbahn track was originally around 5.5” radius, in order to fit a continuous loop on a 12” deep board (I can’t remember if modern Minitrains supplies similarly tight radii, but Kato and Tomix do, intended for light rail/tram use in N gauge). Stuff like Minitrains Gmeinder diesels and Bachmann quarry Hunslets (small short wheelbase 4-wheeled locos) should be OK on this. Wagons should also be small and 4-wheeled - think slate wagons, V-skips etc. - Couplings will be an issue at very tight radii, such that the locos and wagons will run round the curve individually without issue but could derail if coupled together. I don’t have enough experimental experience to say what radius this will occur at, and it probably depends on the specific stock used. The problem can be avoided or mitigated using bar or chain couplers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said: Ultra-minimum radius narrow gauge layouts do get built Look up ‘Tuppenny Handley’ and similar - inside rail is a 2p coin! 7 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said: I guess one key question is to determine which is the top priority: 1. Something (anything) to use the shelf? Or… 2. I really want a Narrow Gauge Layout. If it won’t fit the shelf, I’ll modify the shelf, or build it for elsewhere. Or… 3. I’d like a Narrow Gauge layout, but only if I can get a continuous run on my shelf. Coming back to my mention of Tomix/Kato tram track, @Lacathedrale could always have a look at suitable tram-like prototypes as well, if that’s of any interest. These can avoid the issue of couplings by running vehicles singly. The Belgian Vicinal system was interesting - part tramway, part rural narrow gauge railway and some of the lines were unelectrified with diesel tramcars, so overhead wires would not necessarily be needed. Edit: for accurate gauging on 9mm, these could be modelled in either 3mm/ft, 1:100 or 1:120 as they were metre gauge. Edited February 19 by 009 micro modeller 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 I seem to have lost my reply, which is frustrating. @009 micro modeller I specifically am interested in North/West Wales quarry settings, so motorbogies and trams aren't that helpful (though I do appreciate the advice!) and I'm quite happy with bug-boxes and slate wagons with an 0-4-0 or 0-4-2. @Keith Addenbrooke I have the space, I want a railway layout in the house rather than in the garage. It would easily fit a shunting puzzle or branch terminus (most likely with a plug-in fiddle yard) but a continuous run with a focus on scenics would be a nice contrast to the focus I've hitherto had on mainline passenger operations, and with my interest in welsh NG it seems an idea that meets both those goals. In terms of realism, I understand that bar couplers aren't unknown, and I would expect to mask at least one of the very tight return loops with hills, tunnels, bridges or dense woodland. I am not completely adverse to using wider radii - presumably 9" is suitable for everything - but in doing so I am eating up a large portion of my available space as well as overlapping the shelf - so if it's not required for what I want to run, then so much the better. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 27 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said: I specifically am interested in North/West Wales quarry settings, so motorbogies and trams aren't that helpful (though I do appreciate the advice!) and I'm quite happy with bug-boxes and slate wagons with an 0-4-0 or 0-4-2. OK, it was just an idea if you wanted to avoid the coupling issue entirely. The Kato chassis mentioned are still relevant as they’re widely used in 009 (the latest versions are 11-108 and 109 I think) as is the tight radius Kato and Tomix track if you want set track that might work for something like this (I have some that is 127mm radius, for example). I’d probably use 0-4-0s exclusively and not anything with trailing wheels on those sort of curves. 32 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said: a continuous run with a focus on scenics would be a nice contrast to the focus I've hitherto had on mainline passenger operations Have you considered automatic shuttle operation? I’ve previously used this for an industrial 009 layout (where, being an industrial railway, the loco does not need to run round before it goes back). It offers many of the advantages of continuous run on an end-to-end line, but without the need to fit in outrageously tight return loops. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Keith Addenbrooke Posted February 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19 Thanks for the reply - as far as I’m aware, the Heljan Lyndon and Barnstaple locos are the only new generation 009 r-t-r ones I can think of that specify a minimum radius larger than 9” (I believe 12” is recommended), so you should be fine in N. Wales. Bachmann assume a 9” minimum radius I believe (always worth double checking of course). As @009 micro modeller indicates, the actual minimum radius for a lot of narrow gauge locos can be less than it says on the box, and older models should certainly cope. Of all the plans and ideas you’ve shared on RMweb in recent years I think my personal favourite was the spare room / home office U-shaped 2mm FS Terminus to Fiddle Yard, but if I remember correctly that was for a previous abode so no longer applies anyway, Keith. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 @009 micro modeller you make a good point about shuttle if no runaround was required - but I'm not sure that's really the case for what I'd like to depict. If I went end-to-end then I'd probably go O-16.5 or 5.5mm scale, but I don't imagine shunting a dozen identical slate wagons would be much fun! It seems ebay has a Quarry Hunslet with cab that fits a Kato 11-109 chassis, and a WG Bagnall contractor which fits a Koppel chassis - and the pair could be mine for £125 - both of which seem to meet my criteria of being able to be run around fairly tight curves. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 23 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said: @009 micro modeller you make a good point about shuttle if no runaround was required - but I'm not sure that's really the case for what I'd like to depict. If I went end-to-end then I'd probably go O-16.5 or 5.5mm scale, but I don't imagine shunting a dozen identical slate wagons would be much fun! It seems ebay has a Quarry Hunslet with cab that fits a Kato 11-109 chassis, and a WG Bagnall contractor which fits a Koppel chassis - and the pair could be mine for £125 - both of which seem to meet my criteria of being able to be run around fairly tight curves. That all sounds good. I was assuming a sort of slate quarry setting where very tight curves could actually be quite prototypical - I’m not sure it would look right on a passenger line, even with bug-box type coaches, but it could work. Of course the Catch-22 is that if you make it an entirely industrial setting you can have an internal quarry train shuttling up and down and not needing to run round, but of course by using a shuttle you remove the need for a very tightly-curved continuous run anyway and can then have larger stock. There were various types of wagons used (slab, dressed slate, rubbish etc.) so the slate wagons would not need to be identical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp409067 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said: @009 micro modeller ..... It seems ebay has a Quarry Hunslet with cab that fits a Kato 11-109 chassis,..... * May I advise some caution. There are some inexpensive 3D print loco bodies that in order to fit on top of a KATO 11-109 result in a somewhat overscale loco for "OO9". This is in terms of both length and height. One that does not suffer from this problem is GVT "GLYN" loco from Nigel Brooks. CP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted February 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19 I’ve a 009 micro layout, it uses Kato N gauge track with their ‘setrack’ curves of 117mm radius. Locos are mainly powered by Kato 4 wheel chassis which go round the curves fine. However, some of the stock has problems on the curves as the couplings are not long enough, I’ve solved that by using home made wire couplings instead. I don’t think any 0-6-0s will go round the curves. Beware that at least one 0-4-2 loco actually has a well disguised 0-6-0 chassis. I’ve found that a lot of 009 stuff doesn’t really like shunting, so a countinous run is a good idea. The Kato track is designed to be assembled many times, so you could have a layout on a shelf, and just plug in the track to make the continous run when you want to run trains. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 @ColinK my (very tentative!) idea was a long thin view block down the middle of the layout, a loop on each side/etc. and then some kind of automation to run the trains. Anyway, I printed out some locos for size comparison: 16mm, 7mm, 4mm: 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Worth adding that Kato will be launching some tight radius 009 Unitrack later this year, same radius as their N track but with 009 size sleepers and spacing. 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdlr14mm Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 where did you get the file for the 3d print bodies? what are you going to use to power the 7mm one? cheers john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 7 hours ago, wdlr14mm said: where did you get the file for the 3d print bodies? what are you going to use to power the 7mm one? cheers john thingiverse - it’s half of a double Fairlie. The 7mm body is designed to take Smokey Joe chassis on each end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Bachmanns Double Fairlie, Quarry Hunslet and Penryn Mainline Hunslet 0-4-0s will as the Peco/Kato England locos will go round 183mm radius curves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted March 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9 On 08/03/2024 at 11:30, Hobby said: Worth adding that Kato will be launching some tight radius 009 Unitrack later this year, same radius as their N track but with 009 size sleepers and spacing. is this the stuff: https://traintrax.co.uk/52-220-narrow-gauge-unitrack-183mm-7-radius-45-curve-track-4-pcs 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdlr14mm Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 A friends OO9 layout that is progressing quicker than mine 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 19 hours ago, tractionman said: is this the stuff: https://traintrax.co.uk/52-220-narrow-gauge-unitrack-183mm-7-radius-45-curve-track-4-pcs Yes, no points announced as yet, though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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