Who made this kit?

[trainman0]

Who made this kit of the 403 class? It was definitely made in the mid 40s or early 50s.

[kevinlms]

GEM? But that would presumably be the 1960s.

[Michael Hodgson]

Not sure why, but it looks GEM to me too, but I don't think they did that loco, and he only started in the 1960s - before that we was producing track.  Is it 4mm?  It looks at though it might be O gauge, but if so more likely scratch built rather than kit.

 

Maybe somebody even older than me knows different?

[The Johnster]

If Trainman has definite information that it was made in the 40s or 50s, it can't be GEM, who I remember as TT and LNWR specialists.  Not helping much, am I mummy?

[Hibelroad]

Trainman0 is a name which suggests 0 gauge. But were kits made in the 40s and 50s ? Bit before my time. 

[kevinlms]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

If Trainman has definite information that it was made in the 40s or 50s, it can't be GEM, who I remember as TT and LNWR specialists.  Not helping much, am I mummy?

GEM made some GWR & Scottish (certainly Caley & NBR) loco kits. I wonder if a listing is out there somewhere?

 

But I believe that Trainman's photo came from a website for Rev. Awdry's layout, so earlier must be right. That made me question if it was GEM - so it's unlikely to be so.

[Ravenser]

The fact that we don't know the scale doesn't help. The wire across/behind the buffers suggests Sprat & Winkle , which suggests 4mm to me

 

If this is from the 1950s and 4mm then we must be back in the world of Jamieson, Sayer Chaplin and the like. Gauge O was at a very low ebb in the 1950s

 

In that period, a very real possibility is that it isn't a kit, it's been built by/for one of the big model shops like Hamblings, Bonds, W&H and the like, either in small batches, or built to order as a customer commission. A Scottish prototype might point to a big Glasgow or Edinburgh shop of the day.

 

I'm guessing that Trainman has identified something like a Stewart Reidpath mechanism or early Romford motor to point to a date in the 40s or 50s

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

GEM made some GWR & Scottish (certainly Caley & NBR) loco kits. I wonder if a listing is out there somewhere?

 

But I believe that Trainman's photo came from a website for Rev. Awdry's layout, so earlier must be right. That made me question if it was GEM - so it's unlikely to be so.

 

Bear with me as I have most of the list. Everyone seems to have forgotten all the Midland stuff such as Compounds and 3P 4-4-0s!

 

Also Festiniog*, Talyllyn and other narrow gauge, Isle of Man and then short lived larger scale narrow gauge - 5.5mm scale?

 

Then all the N Gauge as well as the road vehicles and scenic items.

 

Still going!

 

Some items have already been reissued mostly scenic, road and some N Gauge. Loco kits are apparently due to follow.

 

https://www.johndaymodels.co.uk/gem-00-176-scale-lineside-models/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/daryletoneymodels

 

 

*Bagged as such and sold through the FR, still got some of them

 

 

PSST. What's a "403"? Looks Irish....

 

 

 

Jason

[trainman0]

10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

GEM made some GWR & Scottish (certainly Caley & NBR) loco kits. I wonder if a listing is out there somewhere?

 

But I believe that Trainman's photo came from a website for Rev. Awdry's layout, so earlier must be right. That made me question if it was GEM - so it's unlikely to be so.

Yes, I got the photo from rev w awdry's James mrk1. I just asked Whitehousefilms who made it, hopefully he knows. Also it's oo gauge.

Edited April 21 by trainman0

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Bear with me as I have most of the list. Everyone seems to have forgotten all the Midland stuff such as Compounds and 3P 4-4-0s!

 

Also Festiniog*, Talyllyn and other narrow gauge, Isle of Man and then short lived larger scale narrow gauge - 5.5mm scale?

 

Then all the N Gauge as well as the road vehicles and scenic items.

 

Still going!

 

Some items have already been reissued mostly scenic, road and some N Gauge. Loco kits are apparently due to follow.

 

https://www.johndaymodels.co.uk/gem-00-176-scale-lineside-models/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/daryletoneymodels

 

 

*Bagged as such and sold through the FR, still got some of them

 

 

PSST. What's a "403"? Looks Irish....

 

 

 

Jason

A '403' Class is a G&SWR 2-6-0, which is why I mentioned the Scottish GEM kits and not the Midland kits, because that locos, 100% not Midland!

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, trainman0 said:

Yes, I got the photo from rev w awdry's James mrk1. I just asked Whitehousefilms who made it, hopefully he knows. Also it's oo gauge.

 

White 13A sockets on the wall - doesn't look early 40s to me, I think 13A came in just after WW2 and initially in black bakelite, probably 1950s rather than 40s?  And nobody could afford colour photography.  The PVC trunking probably makes these photos much later.

 

If it's a recent photo of an early model, I would suggest that it's probably scratchbuilt - that was a lot more common and there were some pretty good modellers doing that before RTR improved.

 

[trainman0]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

White 13A sockets on the wall - doesn't look early 40s to me, I think 13A came in just after WW2 and initially in black bakelite, probably 1950s rather than 40s?  And nobody could afford colour photography.  The PVC trunking probably makes these photos much later.

 

If it's a recent photo of an early model, I would suggest that it's probably scratchbuilt - that was a lot more common and there were some pretty good modellers doing that before RTR improved.

 

Yes, it is a recent photo. I heard it ran like garbage and had a one direction motor. Sometime in the 50s or 80s (it's unclear) it got sent to Stewart reidpath for a new chassis and motor. I'm starting to think it's scratch built

Edited April 21 by trainman0

[trainman0]

Quote from wiki: This model, unlike the character it portrays, is based upon a G&SWR 403 Class locomotive. It didn't work very well, and the motor only worked in one direction. As a result, it was soon replaced with another model of James, and was subsequently repainted into a G&SWR green livery, in order to represent the first member of that class, number 403.

Edited April 21 by trainman0
Typo

[trainman0]

I remember reading somewhere that it was a brass kit

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A '403' Class is a G&SWR 2-6-0, which is why I mentioned the Scottish GEM kits and not the Midland kits, because that locos, 100% not Midland!

 

Commonly known as a Class 51. That's what confused me. I'm afraid I'm more post 1923 and not that up on obscure Scottish railways.

 

This is what I was thinking of.

 

No credit but details here.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:461,_Bangor.JPG

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, trainman0 said:

I remember reading somewhere that it was a brass kit

 

Probably not in the 1950s. Many "kits" were little more than "scratch aids" at that point. Hand cut pieces that you glued or soldered together with lumps of whitemetal that vaguely looked right. Manufacturers such as Jamieson were at the better end of that market. 

 

If it's by Rev Awdry, he was quite a decent modeller for his era.

 

Does seem a bizarre prototype to make a model of though.

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

38 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Commonly known as a Class 51. That's what confused me. I'm afraid I'm more post 1923 and not that up on obscure Scottish railways.

 

This is what I was thinking of.

 

No credit but details here.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:461,_Bangor.JPG

 

 

Jason

No, those are GS&WR locos in Ireland! Not G&SWR in Scotland. The Ampersand makes all the difference!

 

These are Class 51's! Is everyone really confused now?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT%26SR_51_Class

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

If it's by Rev Awdry, he was quite a decent modeller for his era. Does seem a bizarre prototype to make a model of though.

See quote below;  Rev Awdry's 'James' was based on the  inside cylinder 2-6-0s developed from

0-6-0's, a design scheme much associated with the railways of Scotland.

 

1 hour ago, trainman0 said:

Quote from wiki: This model, unlike the character it portrays, is based upon a G&SWR 403 Class locomotive. It didn't work very well, and the motor only worked in one direction. As a result, it was soon replaced with another model of James, and was subsequently repainted into a G&SWR green livery

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

No, those are GS&WR locos in Ireland! Not G&SWR in Scotland. The Ampersand makes all the difference!

 

These are Class 51's! Is everyone really confused now?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT%26SR_51_Class

 

You mean the Dublin and South Eastern Railway locomotive I posted?

 

Nope the G&SWR 2-6-0s were commonly known as Class 51, where Class 403 has came from is a bit strange and certainly wasn't in use post 1923.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/362608744300

 

The LTSR locomotives are irrelevant and were commonly seen as 2Ps anyway.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

And nobody could afford colour photography

 

Or obtain colour film even if they could; it was the late 50s before 35mm colour slide film was easily available and a few years later before reliable colour negative film for printing from became common.  My old man, The Captain was a bit of a colour enthusiast at the time, into Agfa slides.  He was the sort of bloke who loved all the complexity faff of setting up a camera and the equal faff and ritual of slide shows (my job was 'lights off').  A family legend revolves around his attempt at a night shot of the floodlit Jet d'Eau (rememberThe Champions?) in Geneva in 1966; tripod, light meter readings, camera settings, about twenty minutes of faffing with The Captain in his element.  The lights went off and the water was shut off on a timer at precisely 23.00 (this was Switzerland after all, they were pretty good at this stuff even before the Cern Collider clock*), and he released the shutter for the time exposure by cable at approximately 23.00.000001.  His years learning how to curse in the Merchant Navy came in very handy; I was reminded of Yosemite Sam, the meanest, orneriest. rootin' tootin' shootinest hombre north, east, south and west of the Pecos as he jumped up an down in an apoplectic rage, steam coming out of his ears...

 

Mum and me had to hold each other up laughing, and face away from him; mockery at this point would have not been diplomatic, and perhaps not survivable.  It was perfectly timed comedy, and while Geneva is a lovely city and may be different nowadays, it wasn't in the mid 60s perhaps the most exciting for night-life, a bit Calvinistic to my mind, and the darkness and deafening silence that descended with the last drops of water into the lake was the comedy icing on this particular cake.  One expected tumbleweed.  It did not help in the long run that I'd managed a tolerably successful attempt 20 minutes earlier with my Instamatic 50...

 

 

*we were staying with friends from an Italian holiday two years earlier in Meyrin, about 2 miles out of town and adjacent to the airport, and the Collider tunnel runs directly beneath the block of flats we were at...

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

White 13A sockets on the wall - doesn't look early 40s to me, I think 13A came in just after WW2 and initially in black bakelite, probably 1950s rather than 40s?  And nobody could afford colour photography.  The PVC trunking probably makes these photos much later.

 

If it's a recent photo of an early model, I would suggest that it's probably scratchbuilt - that was a lot more common and there were some pretty good modellers doing that before RTR improved.

 

 

The colour photo?

 

Maybe try the Narrow Gauge Museum in Tywyn as I think that's where the Rev Awdry collection now is.

 

https://narrowgaugerailwaymuseum.org.uk/revd-wilbert-awdry/

 

 

Jason

[trainman0]

Bad news

[trainman0]

Try looking for kits that have parts resembling it. I believe it was a kit-bash from other kits