Class 47s on unfitted coal trains - when did they cease

[18B]

Hi, 

 

Putting rule 1 aside, I'm looking to run a domino blind fitted Class 47 on some unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons. Just wondered by what sort of year this had become rare to see. Obviously such a combination was already much less common than a two tone green 47 on unfitted wagons. 

 

TIA   

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Putting rule 1 aside, I'm looking to run a domino blind fitted Class 47 on some unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons. Just wondered by what sort of year this had become rare to see. Obviously such a combination was already much less common than a two tone green 47 on unfitted wagons. 

 

TIA   

I think 16t (many of which were retro fitted anyway) were phased out in the 70s and obviously dominoes didn't come in till late in that decade.

Edited April 22 by Hal Nail

[hmrspaul]

19 hours ago, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Putting rule 1 aside, I'm looking to run a domino blind fitted Class 47 on some unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons. Just wondered by what sort of year this had become rare to see. Obviously such a combination was already much less common than a two tone green 47 on unfitted wagons. 

 

TIA   

You need to be careful with what region or area you are representing as unfitted trains were banned area by area. Most unfitted minerals in the late 1970s and early 1980s were rebuild, or at least had their top door plated over but until c1982 they were around in South Wales, Goole and the North East, Workington (and possibly Scotland but somewhere I only got to in the 1977 until some years later). https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld

They did last longer transferred to the engineers, with minimal alteration apart from, a usually crudely written) D in front of the B of the number. 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

Moreover, the use of 47s was far from universal : - 

 

Bedlay Colliery exchange sidings ; 18/4/80 : unfitted 16T with class 20

 

Bedlay Colliery exchange sidings ; 18/9/81 : MDV wagons have taken over

 

 

Edited April 22 by Wickham Green too
spilling

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

they were around in South Wales,

Browsing your site earlier I did think a train on the way to Woodhams might be a plausible excuse, although whether they would use a 47 is another matter!

[adb968008]

On 21/04/2024 at 18:15, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Putting rule 1 aside, I'm looking to run a domino blind fitted Class 47 on some unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons. Just wondered by what sort of year this had become rare to see. Obviously such a combination was already much less common than a two tone green 47 on unfitted wagons. 

 

TIA   

I remember unfitted freights in the 1980’s, but not with green diesels, all blue then.

 

I used to be surprised at oddities such as freights with multiple brake vans at the rear, sometimes 6 or more, though the guard was only in one of them… though my memory is 25 and 40’s on such work, and one occasion a 56… but I guess  nothing stopped a 47.

 

 

[Covkid]

5 hours ago, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Putting rule 1 aside, I'm looking to run a domino blind fitted Class 47 on some unfitted 16 ton mineral wagons. Just wondered by what sort of year this had become rare to see. Obviously such a combination was already much less common than a two tone green 47 on unfitted wagons. 

 

TIA   

I believe Bescot's target 18 was diagrammed a class 45 but often got a 47, as did T64 and T65 when they ran. 

These trips mostly conveyed coal from Mid Cannock to Lea Hall colliery (adjacent to Rugeley power station. There were some 16 tonners in consists but 21 ton minerals and 21 ton hoppers were more common. My memories are from 1981 but not sure when until. 

[The Stationmaster]

A 47 was not exactly the ideal loco for working an unfitted freight - no sanders for a start was something which made them less than ideal for a lot of freight working in difficult areas.   Plus they were always  in demand for working fitted freights and passenger etc trains.

[Hal Nail]

If a picture is worth 1000 words, presumably the fact we haven't come up with any is equally true!

[Rivercider]

The British Steel strike of 1980 saw the storage, (and later condemnation) of large numbers of unfitted coal wagons, particularly MCOs and HTOs. From my own observation at work on BR in Bristol unfitted coal wagons became much rarer in the West Country after 1980.

 

cheers

[MidlandRed]

Not massively helpful to this question, but regarding Brush Type 4s and freight traffic, they were conceived as mixed traffic locos. Many were built without boilers for freight use (generally ER). D1807-36 were allocated initially to D16 (Nottingham Division) and when new could be seen at places like Westhouses and Kirkby in Ashfield in replacement for Stanier 8Fs where they would have been used on unfitted mineral trains. 
 

As stated earlier in the thread, they were used, for instance in the late 60s/early 70s on class 9 trip coal trains from the Cannock Chase collieries to power stations like Birchills (Walsall) - Bescot trips, there being an excellent photo of two such trains (9T54 hauled by 1629 and 9T32 by another with multiple rakes of 16T and 24T minerals) at the power station in 1969 in the Changing Engines - The Transition from steam to diesel and electric traction in the Birmingham and Rugby Divisions of the LMR book.
 

A number of these locos were fitted for slow speed control for merry go round working, which they performed until the arrival of the class 56 in the later 1970s. However the fitting of power stations and mines with the required loading and unloading equipment was a phased process and some continued to receive supplies hauled by type 4 power (eg D1-10 peaks etc). 
 

As has been stated the reducing volume of non fitted wagons in the late 70s and the increasing availability of Type 5 locos for freight would probably reduce the likelihood of BR blue domino headcode class 47s on non fitted mineral trains. The application of blue livery to the class was also a relatively drawn out process so that would also affect it. 

Edited April 25 by MidlandRed

[woodenhead]

On 22/04/2024 at 23:13, The Stationmaster said:

A 47 was not exactly the ideal loco for working an unfitted freight - no sanders for a start was something which made them less than ideal for a lot of freight working in difficult areas.   Plus they were always  in demand for working fitted freights and passenger etc trains.

 

On 23/04/2024 at 08:49, Hal Nail said:

If a picture is worth 1000 words, presumably the fact we haven't come up with any is equally true!

In the timeframe the OP is referring to BR had a lot of other traction it could use for the last of any unfitted duties.

 

The northwest had ample class 25s and 40s.  Yorkshire had 40s and 37s, the Northeast had plenty of 37s, South Wales was a 37 stronghold and the southwest had 25s, 31s or the last 52s, the midlands was full of class 20s.

 

No doubt there will have been times to put a 47 on when there was nothing more suitable available. 

 

I used to live by a railway line, the freight workings between Trafford Park and Dewsnap or Ashburys would see all kinds of wagons in a consist plus there were regular Freightliners heading out to Holyhead or the North East.  It wasn't until the mid 1980s that I would regularly see 47s on the liners, it was 40s, Peaks or 37s with 25s or 40s doing the trip workings.  With an abundance of suitable locos BR would keep the 47s for passenger, some liner services, petro chemicals or MGR workings.  It was only as the 25s, 40s and Peaks were scrapped that I began to see 47s on lesser duties.

[MidlandRed]

In the immediate dieselisation of the Birmingham Division, class 24, 25 and 40 were the locos used generally. However referring to another photo (from spring 1967) in the book referred to in the earlier post I made, a selection of locos around a turntable at Saltley are all class 25s and 47s - the 40s and 24s were moved to the north west and Stoke divisions respectively - also for dieselisation. However I suspect many class 47s were employed in freight (admittedly an increasing number on fitted trains) into the era when the 135 class 56s and 50 class 58s had come on line - we also need to consider that from the mid 70s, HSTs came on line as the first choice passenger train solutions on some routes. 
 

It would be interesting if anyone has freight working arrangements and allocated traction from the freight orientated depots for the late 70s and early 80s. The reproduced regional freight plan (which formed part of a regional traction plan) for the remainder of 1966 for the LMR in the Changing Engines book shows all of the proposed reallocations and new build as applied to freight operations. It’s very enlightening. Similar planning documents for the mid to late 70s might identify the allocation of class 47s to freight work. 

Edited April 25 by MidlandRed

[woodenhead]

For the 47 I would guess the 56 had a big impact on MGRs as that's where the 56s first went.

 

HSTs on Cross Country and Midland routes displaced Peaks and steam heat stock leading to 46s and 45/0 with not a lot to do, even the 45/1 was then onto just Trans Pennine.

 

At the same time the 47s were actually stretched when it came to ETH services so BR began converting 47/0 to 47/4 and then they began range extending too with the later 47/7 & 47/8 derivatives.

 

So rather than finding themselves with less for the 47 to do, it rather focussed them on long distance ETH passenger services with all the older Type 4s going to scrap.  The 47 even pushed 50s out in some respects with lots of Network rail 47s working out of Paddington and even on the services out of Waterloo at the end before the 159s were introduced.

 

The 47 really was and is a useful engine.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

... lots of Network rail 47s working out of Paddington ...

Too early for Network Rail ......... I think you mean Sarfeast ! 😁

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Too early for Network Rail ......... I think you mean Sarfeast ! 😁

Correct I did!

[Rivercider]

I have spent quite some time searching Flickr for a class 47 on unfitted coal trains, they were very elusive. All I could find were a couple of green 47s in the 1960s, and a couple more from the 1970s taken before headcodes ceased to be displayed.

 

From the era after the end of headcodes there is this by Dave Jolly taken at Newcastle in 1982, though they look to be all 21t MDOs?

47197 Newcastle 23/7/82 by Dave Jolly.

 

I also found one that I took at Wakefield in 1981, not a coal train, but a lengthy very mixed freight with MCOs at the rear.

 

Wakefield Kirkgate 47218, that is the end of the train on the far right, 18/9/81

 

cheers  

[Mark Saunders]

The photo at Newcastle Central is not a coal train but an engineers spoil train, there was a brief spell when rebodied MDO's were used by engineers in the North East which were replaced by MCV's.

[woodenhead]

10 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The photo at Newcastle Central is not a coal train but an engineers spoil train, there was a brief spell when rebodied MDO's were used by engineers in the North East which were replaced by MCV's.

But it's the closest we've seen to the OP's brief a 47 with unfitted wagons and the one at Wakefield has unfitted minerals and dominoes.

 

So I guess we've found the enough evidence for the OP to be able to confidently run an unfitted coal train behind a domino class 47.

[Rivercider]

When searching Flickr for possible photos of class 47s on unfitted coal trains I was trying to think of the industrial locations 

that were late conversions to MGR working.

Padiham power station was one, but I can only find class 40s on coal.

Willington power station was another late conversion, though I only find 44s and 20s so far.

Export coal through Swansea docks was mostly in MDOs and worked by 37s.

 

Any other possible locations?

 

cheers

[The Johnster]

I'd say your options are limited if you want a domino 47 with a rake of unfitted minerals, but there are other options.  47s in the 70s were frequently used on class 7 and class 8 trains with fitted heads but with unfitted rear portions consisting mostly or completely of such wagons, and a brake van at the rear, and some of these were block coal trains.  So, you can justifyably use your domino 47 with unfitted 16ton minerals, so long as you don't couple unfitted wagons to the loco; you need a fitted head.  It is possibly to run a train as class 8 without a fitted head if it is light enough and the loco on its own can provide sufficient brake force (58tons for a 47) for the load, so long as the instanter couplings are all in the shortened position, but this would be unusual and modelling the unusual is never good practice. 

 

I do not recall any completely unfitted class 9 trains in South Wales in the 70s hauled by 47s; the standard horse for these was a 37, though the Newport Docks-Llanwern unfitted iron ore hoppers were worked by double-headed 25s and occasionally by 1200 Falcon.  All the class 9 work was local in nature and did not venture beyond Cardiff Area, or very far within it.   Class 8 block trains were mostly composed of 16ton minerals, but bogie bolster steel rod or bar traffic between South Wales and the Midlands via Gloucester was quite common, hauled by 47s or 45/6s, and some coal and coke hopper traffic was of this sort as well.  The South Wales-Acton coal trains were class 8 and hauled by 47s or Westerns.

[Fredo]

Hi, so it looks like these ended in any form before 1989, is that a correct assumption? Thanks Fred

[br2975]

Best I can do is this, dated May 1979.

.

A 'namer' with a part-fitted train ex-Radyr, enters Cardiff Central, destination unknown but likely to be the London area.

.

As mentioned earlier, Cl.47s on unfitted coal in South Wales was uncommon, not unheard of, just uncommon.

[Rugd1022]

17 hours ago, br2975 said:

Best I can do is this, dated May 1979.

.

A 'namer' with a part-fitted train ex-Radyr, enters Cardiff Central, destination unknown but likely to be the London area.

.

As mentioned earlier, Cl.47s on unfitted coal in South Wales was uncommon, not unheard of, just uncommon.

 

Probably household coal bound for Acton Yard, and the 47 looks like 089 'Amazon' with its chipped nameplate where someone tried to 'liberate' it, 081 'Odin' was the same on one side too for a while.

[w124bob]

Don't forget MCO's and MCV's were used for scrap traffic prior to the airbrake era, probably shorter trains too. As the domino era would cross over with the last of the class9 freights. Another thing to bear in mind is axle weight on colliery branches particularly on the LM, why send a 47 when you still have dozens of class 20's. 

I have seen at least one picture of a class 47 on a very short coal train in Scotland, Polmadie still used engines off class 1 trains on short trips before they returned south. Why use ScR fuel when you can burn ER or LM fuel! This was a hangover from the steam era.

As stated right at the top of the thread you can invoke rule1