forest2807 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) I'm just after a quick confirmation or denial please if anyone can help - in a book by Eric Treacy (I forget the name and I'm at work so can't check) there is a photo of 5613 'Kenya' and the caption says it is in plain black livery. It is pre-1948 ie LMS owned rather than BR. Should I interpret this as unlined black? The photo is quite grainy and I can't make out any lining. Did any Jubilees run in plain unlined black livery? Edited May 2 by forest2807 Loco is called Kenya not Kashmir! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Ray Townsin (The Jubilee 4-6-0s (2006) RCTS Bristol ISBN 090 1115 94 0) states: "5.3: WARTIME. The extreme conditions of wartime with heavy demands for military requirements over the normal workload on a reduced workforce meant that engines were soon being out-shopped in a black livery, or patch painted. As early as June 1940 it had been decided that only the Pacifies and Royal Scots would receive a correct livery in red and all other engines were to be unlined black. This policy soon reflected on the Jubilees and a considerable proportion of the class had duly received a black coat of paint by 1945." From photos, so not complete, he suggests the following were in plain, i.e. unlined, black: 5572, 5600?, 5603, 5613?, 5623, 5637?, 5664?, 5685, 5697, 5702, 5735?, 5742. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) Most locos - on all British railways - were getting plain black repaints at this time ...... IF repainted at all. Edited May 2 by Wickham Green too IF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innerhome Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 If I'm reading this correctly - then LMS Jubilees - Essery & Toms says 5613 has LMS Livery variation C25 which was plain black with plain livery insignia and 12 inch numerals - applied March 1948 (just after nationalisation). A small number of other Jubilees had plain black with different insignia variations - seems to have been applied just postwar (the book doesn't seem to list any repaints during the war - so possible records didn't exist). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 I'd be surprised if any 5X was repainted to plain black in 1948. The LMS 1946 livery had arrived and was applied to many of these engines. Of course, if they were painted at St Rollox then anything is possible! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 .... any evidence of Caley blue ? ........... er .... of any shade ? 😁 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Only on Sodor! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 4 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: .... any evidence of Caley blue ? ........... er .... of any shade ? 😁 On what? Certainly not on a Jubilee, although 5573 did get a blue/slate grey livery along with Duchess Of Abercorn as an experiment. This says it was a similar shade as used on RAF vehicles. Possibly someone got a job lot of the paint at a time when paint was probably hard to come by. http://www.robinbarnes.net/gallery9.html Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 3 minutes ago, LMS2968 said: Only on Sodor! ... though Carnforth tried to set a trend with 42085 ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said: ... though Carnforth tried to set a trend with 42085 ! That was the owner Charles Maher (who ISTR had a dispute with BR) though and it wasn't at Carnforth for long. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 (edited) So here is the photo and the loco in question, taken by The Bishop in 1945-46 according to the caption for the previous photo referred to above. Plain unlined black livery do we agree ladies and gents? Edited May 2 by forest2807 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3 23 hours ago, forest2807 said: So here is the photo and the loco in question, taken by The Bishop in 1945-46 according to the caption for the previous photo referred to above. Plain unlined black livery do we agree ladies and gents? There is a photo of those famous 4 bridges in Treacy's LMS without any trains or smoke. Was it a rail strike day? So clearly he used that photo and photo shopped any locomotive and smoke effect he felt inclined! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 (edited) On 02/05/2024 at 01:20, LMS2968 said: Ray Townsin (The Jubilee 4-6-0s (2006) RCTS Bristol ISBN 090 1115 94 0) … From photos, so not complete, he suggests the following were in plain, i.e. unlined, black: 5572, 5600?, 5603, 5613?, 5623, 5637?, 5664?, 5685, 5697, 5702, 5735?, 5742. Just for completeness, 5735? should be 5737? . Also, he lists 5567 as having “Black and High No.”. I presume that means unlined black with the cabside number in a higher position than normal. Edited May 4 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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