Frankfurt to London ICE-3 Test

[The Stationmaster]

The original intention was to retain some services from Waterloo - basically an hourly (!!) service to Paris. Part of the reason was long term capacity expectations plus the attraction of having an alternative terminus in the event of any problems on the heavily tunnelled St Pancras route. Apart from continuing to get use out of the terminal other reasons for it were to continue to offer a service from that side of London and to offer an alternative access to North Pole should the North London Line etc be blocked for any reason (mind you it would have been quite a long way round from St Pancras ). Incidentally the long term intention to continue running from Waterloo was part of the justification for the major alterations to the junction at Shortlands

 

However when costs were looked at far more seriously and part of the property deal in West London began to not go LCR's way there was a major rethink. The net result was to drop Waterloo trains - notwithstanding the impact on longer term capacity - and pull out of North Pole to avoid various infrastructure work (e.g. the reversing siding in the vicinity of White City) plus avoiding the need to convert all the Three Capitals sets to be able to operate on BR 25kv overhead. Despite ending up with a smaller, inadequate, depot and equally inadequate platform capacity at St Pancras the decision saved a large amount of money - so it must have been an easy one .

 

Another benefit was being able to get rid of the shoegear and its retracting mechanism (which could be a bit finicky at times) and that allowed SNCF to save the blocks of concrete at Frethun which were there to remove any shoes which hadn't fully retracted (the shoes were out-of-gauge in France).

[phil-b259]

How do they use TVM with multi-aspect lineside signals as a matter of interest? There was enough trouble trying to get the design right for the transition from TVM to lineside signals in the approach to the overhead covered way (over the ECML) without taking it right into the lineside signalled area (which I presumed to actually have something like KVB judging by what is in the 4 foot?).

 

Incidentally unless things have changed the TVM has to be disarmed when running into Ashford as the train has to changeover to BR mode in order for the AWS to work.

 

As I understand it a redesign to a dial type speedo was assessed a long time ago and found to present major technical problems which would be very expensive to resolve so it was neever seriously considered.

 

Well I was only speeeking in general terms (though it wasn't particularly clear I was) and as you quite correctly say on the final approch to St Pancras and when passing through the Ashford area TVM switches off and lineside signals are used. Also your comment about KVB is quite correct though it does raise an interesting point that unless theses new trains are fitted with AWS & TPWS they will be barred from serving Ashford whose layout is not really suitable for the services that use it post HS1. IIRC it causes Southeastern serious problems with timetabling given all Canterbury line trains and all high speed services are confined to the northern two platforms.

[phil-b259]

Despite ending up with a smaller, inadequate, depot and equally inadequate platform capacity at St Pancras the decision saved a large amount of money - so it must have been an easy one .

 

[/i]

 

IIRC North Pole was hardly ideal. To perform even the most basic of maintenance the Eurostars had to be split into two half sets while the maintenance shed at Temple Mills is long enough for one complete set. I do admit though the lack of suitable siding space near St Pancras could well be a problem in the years ahead - Maybee HS1 should think about reserving some land in the Ripple lane area to provide further facilaties before its too late.

[roythebus]

With the crap service from Ashford to Brussels, I dive via Eurotunnel, it's far cheaper and quicker. Last time I tried to used the 06 something it was £258 for a day return! Etunnel £58 return and half a tank of diesel. I only live 20 minutes from Ashford and Cheriton and have managed Calais check in gate-home in 1hr55.

[Edwin_m]

I dive via Eurotunnel.

 

Not literally I hope...

[The Stationmaster]

IIRC North Pole was hardly ideal. To perform even the most basic of maintenance the Eurostars had to be split into two half sets while the maintenance shed at Temple Mills is long enough for one complete set. I do admit though the lack of suitable siding space near St Pancras could well be a problem in the years ahead - Maybee HS1 should think about reserving some land in the Ripple lane area to provide further facilaties before its too late.

 

North Pole had some huge advantages over Temple Mills - plenty of space (but then it was also meant to deal with other trains such as a couple of Regional sets plus three sleepers each night/day) and a division of servicing and maintenance functions on the two halves of the site which allowed them, some stabling apart, to be kept nicely separated. And splitting on depot trains which were designed to be split in the Tunnel in an emergency wasn't exactly a huge imposition although obviously it took a bit of time.

 

Temple Mills is already inadequate to handle the nightly turnover of trains - it simply doesn't have the space - meaning sets have to be left at St Pancras and ferried to & fro. And during the day St Pancras hasn't got enough platform capacity to handle the service meaning trains have to be shunted out to wherever they can be dumped in order to clear platforms - mind you that was known long before the rebuilding started and was the case even before an international platform was deleted from the scheme; the answer back then was 'don't forget, capacity will still exist at Waterloo' .

[Edwin_m]

Station capacity is also a handy argument for Eurostar to use if and when DB start applying for paths...

[The Stationmaster]

Station capacity is also a handy argument for Eurostar to use if and when DB start applying for paths...

 

Indeed, and it could get very interesting.

 

There will be no problem with paths on CTRL itself as its capacity far exceeds the ability of St Pancras to turn round the trains and if push came to shove the DB trains ought to take precedence for pathing over 'local trains' (that is the standard European Timetable Conference procedure although 'open access' might have a little bearing on quite how it works in this case ).

 

The other big question mark hangs over what happens in the Tunnel. If the DB trains don't slot into the normal Eurostar flighting pattern (which could then lead to a problem at St Pancras as up to three platforms might be needed for closely spaced arrivals) the alternative will have to be 'domestication' of running speeds in the Tunnel. Domestication has always been the ET intention if the number of international passenger trains increases beyond a particular - far from clearly identified - level and the arrival of another international operator is bound to make them again try to bring it in. The net outcome of that is that Eurostars would then be slowed to passenger shuttle speeds in the Tunnel adding several minutes to their transit time (but thereby increasing line capacity).

 

So some interesting times ahead I reckon.

[Ron Ron Ron]

There will be no problem with paths on CTRL itself.......

Wotz that den?

 

 

 

 

 

.....as its capacity far exceeds the ability of St Pancras to turn round the trains....

Highlighting the problem of turning around trains on platform at end of line terminii.

As the legacy infrastructure and constrained city centre site precluded a Berlin Hauptbahnhof concept of operation, one would have thought that in planning St.Pancras and HS1, that provision could have been made to turn the trains around "off-site' to allow reduced platform occupancy times.

The old railway land to the north of SPI and KX might have been ideal for such use, but that's all being built on now (Kings Cross Central).

 

 

 

....If the DB trains don't slot into the normal Eurostar flighting pattern ..........the alternative will have to be 'domestication' of running speeds in the Tunnel.

Domestication has always been the ET intention if the number of international passenger trains increases beyond a particular - far from clearly identified - level and the arrival of another international operator is bound to make them again try to bring it in. The net outcome of that is that Eurostars would then be slowed to passenger shuttle speeds in the Tunnel adding several minutes to their transit time (but thereby increasing line capacity).....

Sort of ironic in that by adding new services, journey times will be longer.

Add the (now more likely) increase in Eurostar services to those proposed by DB and the claimed reduction in London - Paris times made possible by the introduction of Eurostar's new Velaro-E, will be difficult to achieve during the peak periods..

 

.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Wotz that den?

 

 

It's a sort of railway tradition thing - I just can't get on with all this meaningless modern terminology ... tehehe.

 

 

Highlighting the problem of turning around trains on platform at end of line terminii.

As the legacy infrastructure and constrained city centre site precluded a Berlin Hauptbahnhof concept of operation, one would have thought that in planning St.Pancras and HS1, that provision could have been made to turn the trains around "off-site' to allow reduced platform occupancy times.

The old railway land to the north of SPI and KX might have been ideal for such use, but that's all being built on now (Kings Cross Central).

 

Of course, as I said, part of the terminal capacity problem would have been solved by keeping open Waterloo International, but ...........

 

A little bit of shunt capacity exists at St Pancras thanks to the connection to the North London Line but much of the rest of the site and layout was fairly heavily constrained due to the need to work in all the various connections to the NLL and GN mainline with the gradients and curvature they needed. Plenty of options I think by going northwards on the Midland route, or even to the GN (not so good there)but that would have required sets mod'd to be able to work over BR 25kv ohle with all its attendant costs. Simplest answer might have been to make another international 'island' on the east side by reducing the number of 'reserved domestic' platforms - but that would presumably have been a 'political' step too far.

 

Alas - putting it in very simple terms - the thing was not properly thought out (correction - it was, but that was never linked to the base case requirement for CTRL itself it being always obvious that there was no way St Pancras could handle the number of international plaths specified for the route to the Tunnel).

 

 

 

Sort of ironic in that by adding new services, journey times will be longer.

Add the (now more likely) increase in Eurostar services to those proposed by DB and the claimed reduction in London - Paris times made possible by the introduction of Eurostar's new Velaro-E, will be difficult to achieve during the peak periods..

 

Just shows that folk should study contractual small print before launching off with their big ideas. The question of probable domestication was in the original contracts between BR/SNCF and Eurotunnel, and that was long before what became the UK high speed route was no more than a glint in somebody's eye (as long as nobody else was looking). However the counter argument about introducing moving block in the Tunnel, or at least increasing the number of paths per hour, could be played as well.

 

An interesting poit arises also with Velaro-E potentially running at higher speeds. At present SNCF constrain speeds on LGVs in order to reduce power consumption and consequent electricity costs. If something is going to run faster, even with more advanced technology reducing its power consumption, will SNCF Infrastructure be looking to load it with higher energy costs?

[chrisf]

If there is a potential shortage of capacity at St Pancras, how about starting some Eurostars [or ICEs] at Stratford International? This would give a choice of London termini ...

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

If there is a potential shortage of capacity at St Pancras, how about starting some Eurostars [or ICEs] at Stratford International? This would give a choice of London termini ...

 

Chris

 

Which raises the question of whether or not Stratford has (or can accommodate if it doesn't have) the necessary station infrastructure to do that? I understand that in relative terms turnrounds at St Pancras are taking a lot longer than they did at Waterloo. While I don't know why that is I would hazard an educated guess that it is probably a consequence of the design and relatively cramped nature of the station facilities compared with Waterloo International.

 

If Stratford were to be used to start trains they would - unless it could accommodate the facility - still require trains to be stocked at St Pancras. If it was used to turn-round trains then it would also need to accommodate the cleaning teams as well as having the necessary crew rest etc facilities. All of that takes room but more critically it requires access to the platforms for both personnel and equipment such as platform tugs etc, power points for cleaning equipment (could be on train tho') and so on. Was Stratford designed for all that or could it be adopted if it wasn't?

[Aldwych]

Hello,

 

here is a Picture

 

http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/wirtschaft/2010/10/13/ice-test-im-eurotunnel/premiere-unter-dem-aermelkanal.html

 

the Train is only for Experimental Purposes ... the Train have not Run on National Rail Metals! (Train needs only for the Tunnel no Yellow Panel!)

 

Greetings

 

Dennis

[Aldwych]

and more Pictures

 

http://www.ice-treff.de/index.php?id=85856

 

but I see, I must correcture ... the Train is at 19th October at St. Pancras ... but without the yellow warning panel ...

[cunningduck]

Was the set posed at the end of the tunnel for the photograph? Or was it an official photo?

[Ron Ron Ron]

So it appears that the two sets being used for the tests and the PR appearance in London, are not the Velaro-D units that will be used on the actual services.

Railway Gazette reports them to be......

 

ICE-3M - number 4610, certified for use in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands: and....

ICE-3MF- number 4685, equipped with ETCS and TVM430 for use on services to Paris via LGV Est.

According to the report, only one of these units will make it to St. Pancras next Tuesday (19th).

This will no doubt be a one-off appearance of the ICE-3 in the UK as further tests, including running trains, will probably use the new trains intended for the service (Velaro-D or ICE-4).

 

 

Some images.....

The competition, side by side.... r1870650.jpg

 

Class 186 delivering the goods.... tn_fr-ICE-Douai-LC_6113.JPG

 

ICE in the tunnel..... 3663829.bin

 

...and again.... r1700661641.jpg

[Ron Ron Ron]

Was the set posed at the end of the tunnel for the photograph? Or was it an official photo?

The reports say the train ran a short way into the tunnel, then reversed out. It doesn't say if it was under its own power, or if it was towed.

It looks like it was a photo shoot, as the trains had recently arrived from Germany.

 

The tests take place over this coming weekend. Reports say that the tow up to London next week will be performed by a pair of Eurotunnel's Krupps Class 0001

 

The pair of trains were towed from Germany by a Euro Cargo Rail Traxx Class 186 loco. (for those that don't know, ECR are an EWS - now DBS, subsidiary).

[Fat Controller]

The reports say the train ran a short way into the tunnel, then reversed out. It doesn't say if it was under its own power, or if it was towed.

It looks like it was a photo shoot, as the trains had recently arrived from Germany.

 

The tests take place over this coming weekend. Reports say that the tow up to London next week will be performed by a pair of Eurotunnel's Krupps Class 0001

 

The pair of trains were towed from Germany by a Euro Cargo Rail Traxx Class 186 loco. (for those that don't know, ECR are an EWS - now DBS, subsidiary).

The train ran under its own power into Interval 5, where the driver changed ends and drove out again. It was done during one of E*'s 'white periods', with single-line working via Interval 6 and the French crossover for about 90 minutes. I hadn't realised the test was actually taking place today, and arrived at Cheriton crew building to find my 13:39 departure wasn't running...

One of my colleagues took some movie footage on her mobile phone from the cess just outside the South Portal as the ICE came out (so wrong line)- just as the last vehicle came past the crossover, a Eurostar went past (also wrong-line) into the North portal. Couldn't have been better if it had been planned!

[Pixie]

Does anyone know what sort of time will the ICE be arriving at St. Pancras and how long it's staying? Quite fancy a nose around if it's at all possible!

 

Pix

[Adam1701D]

Likewise. I gather there will be strictly invite-only access to the train itself, as it will be in the International Area of St.Pancras but it should be possible to get a view through the glass or from the UK platforms either side.

[Ron Ron Ron]

There's a short bit of video on this newspaper website, to go with the photos from yesterday.......

 

ICE-3MF entering the Channel Tunnel

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

All very nice - now with TVM 430 and the right paperwork that set could run trials right up to Ebbsfleet, or possibly Stratford, under its own power (and of course on the less hidebound/frightened of its own shadow railway of the not too distant past that's exactly what might have happened with a couple of 'phone calls and a few nods & winks. And Eurostar could even have supplied a German speaking Traction Inspector and Conductor Driver). Shame all the fun's gone out of the job

[Glorious NSE]

Which raises the question of whether or not Stratford has (or can accommodate if it doesn't have) the necessary station infrastructure to do that? I understand that in relative terms turnrounds at St Pancras are taking a lot longer than they did at Waterloo. While I don't know why that is I would hazard an educated guess that it is probably a consequence of the design and relatively cramped nature of the station facilities compared with Waterloo International.

 

If Stratford were to be used to start trains they would - unless it could accommodate the facility - still require trains to be stocked at St Pancras. If it was used to turn-round trains then it would also need to accommodate the cleaning teams as well as having the necessary crew rest etc facilities. All of that takes room but more critically it requires access to the platforms for both personnel and equipment such as platform tugs etc, power points for cleaning equipment (could be on train tho') and so on. Was Stratford designed for all that or could it be adopted if it wasn't?

 

I don't think Stratford was designed to work in that way either, the "ramp" from Temple Mills depot joins at the London end, so no easy access for ECS to Stratford station - the better option as you intimated earlier would be some kind of stabling/cleaning sidings a little way up either the MML or ECML routes to allow trains to vacate platforms more promptly at St Pancras.

 

I'm not that convinced that "domestication" if it were to happen would make that much of an impact though, doing a quick back-of-envelope suggests dropping from 100mph running to 80mph through the tunnel might cost you in the region of 5 minutes, not that big a deal on a multi-hour trip.

 

 

[Kris]

There's a short bit of video on this newspaper website, to go with the photos from yesterday.......

 

ICE-3MF entering the Channel Tunnel

 

.

 

Not a newspaper I would have expected it to have been it. Certainly not local news.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't think Stratford was designed to work in that way either, the "ramp" from Temple Mills depot joins at the London end, so no easy access for ECS to Stratford station - the better option as you intimated earlier would be some kind of stabling/cleaning sidings a little way up either the MML or ECML routes to allow trains to vacate platforms more promptly at St Pancras.

 

I'm not that convinced that "domestication" if it were to happen would make that much of an impact though, doing a quick back-of-envelope suggests dropping from 100mph running to 80mph through the tunnel might cost you in the region of 5 minutes, not that big a deal on a multi-hour trip.

 

If I remember rightly it is 6 minutes, Brian can no doubt confirm (or correct).