Coaching Stock for LI

[jointline]

With the imminent arrival of the Hornby L1 tank I am looking ahead and thinking of suitable suburban stock to put behind it. My layout is based on jointline services Marylebone/Paddington to High Wycombe etc. I have sussed out the WR coaching stock from the GW Journal, but cannot find any precise information on the LNER suburban stock the L1's would have hauled from Marylebone to the Chilterns. The only kits I can find so far are the Kirk kits for the 51ft non corridor stock, but I don't know if these are suitable. Help from any LNER/ER devotees would be most appreciated!

[dibateg]

The Kirk kits would be suitable, from the 1956 carriage working book a typical set would be:-

 

Twin BS-SL, Twin S-S, S,BS - 6 vehicles

 

BS-SL Twin Brake 2nd and Second with Lav - ( I'm not sure there is Kirk kit for this, but one could be cut and shut from other kits if you are adventurous.

S-S Twin second - could be made from full 2nd kits

S Second - existing kit

BS Brake second, I think with 6 compartments, not sure if there is a kit for that, but there is a 4 compt one.

 

I'm out of touch with the 4mm Kirk Range - there must be a web site.

 

The Michael Harris books on LNER coaches and 4mm LNER & LMS Historic drawing books would help

 

Regards

 

Tony

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Usual problem of pre-grouping stock remaining in service through the LNER period, both ex GCR and Metropolitan vehicles, only finally displaced by Gresley/Thomspon/BR mk1/DMU's in BR days. Anything in the Isinglass drawings catalogue? The GCR had some very neat flush sided all compartment non-corridor stock, 10 compartment thirds for example, pretty advanced vehicles in their day.

[jwealleans]

The Kirk kits are now available through Coopercraft at their website. There are a few cut and shuts on here, including some on my old workbench thread. There are also some scratchbuilds such as Gobbler's Gresley non-corridor stock here.

 

For the GC vehicles your best bet is Bill Bedford - the kits can get expensive but if you use his sides and scratchbuild the rest it's less ruinous. 247 Developments now do a GC bogie.

[coachmann]

My L1 will be hauling an Eastern Region rake of coaches working out of Guide Bridge on the ex GCR. Information on stock was obtained from photo albums. Are there not any albums covering Marylebone to the Chilterns?

[Galtee More]

There's also the kits for Gresley. Thompson and BR stock from Comet Models and some BR stock, including Lavatory coaches from Marc Models.

 

Additionally, there's sides and components for some Gresley non-gangwayed coaches from MJT

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

There are some photos here of L1s at Risborough & Wycombe, you can glimpse the first carriages:

 

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam/lner-l1-1.htm

 

There was a couple of articles about the trains out of Marlybone in Model Rail (I can't remember the Issue Numbers) and remember some photos of L1s at Wycombe:

 

Simon

[coachmann]

There are some photos here of L1s at Risborough & Wycombe, you can glimpse the first carriages:

In the first picture behind the green L1, the leading carriage is a North Eastern non-corridor. Gresley non-corridors are shown in the other two pictures.

[Kits from Somerset]

The Kirk kits would be suitable, from the 1956 carriage working book a typical set would be:-

 

Twin BS-SL, Twin S-S, S,BS - 6 vehicles

 

BS-SL Twin Brake 2nd and Second with Lav - ( I'm not sure there is Kirk kit for this, but one could be cut and shut from other kits if you are adventurous.

S-S Twin second - could be made from full 2nd kits

S Second - existing kit

BS Brake second, I think with 6 compartments, not sure if there is a kit for that, but there is a 4 compt one.

 

I'm out of touch with the 4mm Kirk Range - there must be a web site.

 

The Michael Harris books on LNER coaches and 4mm LNER & LMS Historic drawing books would help

 

Regards

 

Tony

 

The BS-SL were built as BT-CL and were 55'6" long to three different diags and there are no kits for these from Kirk, Comet, MJT and Marc. The closest you can get will be Kirk 8864 but this has only one lav but the drawing I have seen has two. The S-S could have been built as T-F or T-T as during WW2 first class was withdrawn. These will be covered by Kirk 8861 and 8862. There are no kits for the 6 compartment brake third but Kirk 8832 is 4 compartment and 8837 is five compartment.

 

So the easiest for the BS-CL will be to cut and shunt.

[jointline]

The Kirk kits would be suitable, from the 1956 carriage working book a typical set would be:-

 

Twin BS-SL, Twin S-S, S,BS - 6 vehicles

 

BS-SL Twin Brake 2nd and Second with Lav - ( I'm not sure there is Kirk kit for this, but one could be cut and shut from other kits if you are adventurous.

S-S Twin second - could be made from full 2nd kits

S Second - existing kit

BS Brake second, I think with 6 compartments, not sure if there is a kit for that, but there is a 4 compt one.

 

I'm out of touch with the 4mm Kirk Range - there must be a web site.

 

The Michael Harris books on LNER coaches and 4mm LNER & LMS Historic drawing books would help

 

Regards

 

Tony

[jointline]

Thanks, that is very helpful. I had the Michael Harris book and passed it on, thinking I wouldn't have any interest in LNER stock, and then of course realised that I would need it for Jointline trains before 1958 (when it passed to the LMR). Unfortunately my knowledge of all matters ER is fairly limited and to be honest I never dreamed that a RTR of an L1 was even a remote possibility. For the non WR trains I am currently using a Fairburn and Mk 1 suburbans.

 

Regards

Robert

[jointline]

The Kirk kits are now available through Coopercraft at their website. There are a few cut and shuts on here, including some on my old workbench thread. There are also some scratchbuilds such as Gobbler's Gresley non-corridor stock here.

 

For the GC vehicles your best bet is Bill Bedford - the kits can get expensive but if you use his sides and scratchbuild the rest it's less ruinous. 247 Developments now do a GC bogie.

[jointline]

Many thanks, have now found the link.

 

Regards

 

Robert

[jointline]

Hi,

 

There are some photos here of L1s at Risborough & Wycombe, you can glimpse the first carriages:

 

http://www.railalbum...m/lner-l1-1.htm

 

There was a couple of articles about the trains out of Marlybone in Model Rail (I can't remember the Issue Numbers) and remember some photos of L1s at Wycombe:

 

Simon

[jointline]

Thanks for the link, much appreciated! I do have dozens of pictures of the line, but my knowledge base of ER/LNER stock is not good, so even if I see a picture I'm not at all certain which particular coach it is (OK with GWR/WR....!)

 

Robert

[Mallard60022]

In the first picture behind the green L1, the leading carriage is a North Eastern non-corridor. Gresley non-corridors are shown in the other two pictures.

 

Re. above: there are NER (subs?) available from Fozzard I believe? They look good on his site but I've never made one. I think the Comet Gresley subs are quite nice and I have just made part of one and the sides look OK. Have not seen a Coopercraft (ex Kirk) one so can't comment, however I have just 'enhanced' (messed up??????!) a Kirk Maunsell using odds and end parts including Roxey grab handles (b****r to fit at the right angle) and fuse wire for water fillers, so 'plastic and bits' should make a reasonable finished product!

36E

[coachmann]

Re. above: there are NER (subs?) available from Fozzard I believe?

Yes. I built one of his kits a few weeks ago.....

 

[Mallard60022]

Yes. I built one of his kits a few weeks ago.....

 

 

How was it for you then coach? She looks superb (as usual). Love the colour, which is?

Did you use the full works from Foz or did you mix and match a bit?

Hope you are keeping well and that you are back in full production.

Sincerely, Phil @ 36E

[coachmann]

How was it for you then coach?

I purchased the full works from John. His artwork is spot-on and everything went together well.

 

I did my usual modifications though ....... A metal strip along the top of each coach side (that folds over at right-angles to make the sides more rigid) was removed so I could drop a full width interior. I also modified the coach end roof profile to suit a Wheeltappers roof instead of the MJT roof.

 

The BR carmine is a laugh! I wanted something darker than my usual carmine red and simply sprayed one coat on top of LNER brown undercoat! "Ah, just as I remember it" I told meself!!!

[jointline]

Thank you to all who have replied to this post. All the help has been gratefully received. I feel that suburban stock has been too much ignored by the major manufacturers, considering that so many RTR tank engines are now available. Probably just symptomatic of the emphasis on motive power rather than coaches. Full marks to Airfix and Bachmann for their LMR and Mk 1 suburbans, which are a mainstay on my layout. (and even the Airfix/Hornby B set can be re-jigged to produce some useful WR stock.

 

Robert

[coachmann]

I feel that suburban stock has been too much ignored by the major manufacturers, considering that so many RTR tank engines are now available.

It is indeed sad that a Midland Pullman DMU is considered more of a money-spinner than everyday coaches, but that's life in the RTR world. We can make the most of the better RTR products, but outside of that I'm afraid it is still down to the skills of the railway modeller to produce their own needs.

 

Larry

 

PS: For those interested in building etched kits, may I suggest a look in on my coach WB:

http://www.rmweb.co....2-lner-coaches/

[jointline]

Just as a P.S. to this topic, one thing I can remember about this suburban stock in the early '60s was how amazingly dirty it was inside. Even a mild tap on the seats would raise clouds of dust and soot! It would be great to go back for an afternoon, but I think modern commuters who complain about poor standards would be a bit amazed at the conditions their parents had to live with! The record complement in one compartment, according to a friend who did a daily commute in the 1950's, was 19!

 

Robert

[coachmann]

I'll settle for those suburban coaches when dust was the only thing to worry about. Preferable to some of the things that passengers leave on trains and buses nowadays...

[jointline]

On an earlier thread I posed the question as to what suburban stock the L1 class would have pulled out of Marylebone on the High Wycombe/Princes Risborough/Woodford Halse service, bearing in mind the new Hornby L1 offering. This is a thank you for all the answers I received, and to add some additional information.

 

I received some very helpful replies, and pointers, particularly the reply from dibateg about the twin arts, and the train formation of two twin arts plus two strengtheners.

 

I have now confirmed that the actual diagrams for the twin stock are diagrams D242 (1st/3rd, 51ft); D213 (Bk3rd,5 comp/lav comp; 55ft 6in); and D214 (Bk 3rd 6 comp/comp; 55ft 6in).

 

The twin/twin consist seems fairly regular, but the strengthening two coaches seem to have varied considerably. As coachman most helpfully pointed out, one of those used in 1948 was an ex NER vehicle (picture on page 141 of “Country Branch Line Vol 2 (Karau/Turner). The second strengthening coach on this train appears to be a six compartment brake 3rd, although I have not been able to find a suitable diagram number.

 

This information makes it possible to make sense of most of the pictures I have seen with Gresley type stock. For example illustration #54 of the Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith volume “Paddington to Princes Risborough†very clearly shows the two lavatory windows in the sides of the lav/comp. Illustration #88 shows two of the twin arts, with one of the strengthening coaches being ex GCR. In “The Final Linkâ€, by Dennis Edwards and Ron Pigram, the illustration on page 68 shows the 6 compartment brake third of the twin set as the leading vehicle behind the A5. A five compartment brake third is shown as the leading vehicle on page 19 of the Laurence Waters book “Last Years of Steam- Paddington to Wolverhamptonâ€.

 

I hope these notes are helpful for anybody contemplating what to use the L1 to pull if modelling the outer London area. If anybody has further information I would be pleased to know about it. Also, as I said in my last topic I about this subject, it really makes one wonder what the manufacturers of these, primarily passenger, tank engines expect them to pull, as they seem to be totally oblivious to producing any RTR suburban stock.

 

Robert

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

They clearly expect those who actually care to get busy and sort it out for themselves!

 

Actually, Bachmann are coming out with something suitable later this year, and probably next year, certainly for BR(ER) GN and GE. These would be the class 105 and Derby lightweight DMU's: which when they broke down (frequently in the case of the 105) would usually be recovered by steam locos up to about 1960. (Granted, hitching an L1 to a failed DMU is akin to using a Lotus as a breakdown truck...) Now I do realise that this is not the service formation that most would be looking for, but a little credit where due?