gobbler Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hi Guys..... Thought you may be interested in this, please feel free to add any comments... To start with, i found the drawing for this in an oldish railway modeller mag and thought ooh...that would look good on my Southminster layout so without further ado...... i've made a bit more progress than these shots show, such as laying the 0.2mm skin to give relief around the windows. the whole body is made of 0.8mm thk plasticard. what i'm not sure of at the moment is..... 1) what bogies to use, i've got an oldish Hornby carriage which i may use that has the similar looking bogies 2) how to do the roof...haven't thought that through may be that Hornby carriage may come in handy again. 3) roof details such as the 'torpedo' vents 4) buffer beam details let me know what you think.....any tips and ideas etc..... scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Thompson semi-corridor lavatory composite? I assume that these would be on some flavour of Gresley bogies , but can't comment on the merits or otherwise of the old Hornby bogies. The MJT range of castings - I think , now with Dart Castings - seems to be the common resource for suitable bogies , and for other bits such as you describe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 the coach is a Gresley, would of been varnished teak when first made in 1936. not clear here but i have made a start on the panelling (didn't show up on the picture i've taken) the coach will be finished in either LNER teak brown, very dirty (not teak wood effect) or BR maroon. i'll try and post some more pix tonight. still got a bunch of seats to make, not sure if i'll do it myself or get a couple of stips of the wills/ratio seating. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I know the coach you mean - I had though of doing a cut and shut from Kirk sides. Can't recall the diagram number OTTOMH. You've cut the sides out of 30 thou plastikard? Looks a very tidy job. I use the Coopercraft seats in my coaches. MJT or Comet for the underframe and end details. Both can also do roof vents and buffers. Bogies - I'd be tempted to recommend ABS so you get a bit of weight into it, but if you can't get any then MJT or Comet will do what you want. I don't know what the running qualities of the Hornby ones are like. I did use the Bachmann ones under a coach I built for a friend and it seemed to run OK. MJT do an aluminium roof which might be a worthwhile thing to use as it would give more rigidity as well (although these scratchbuilds can be very rigid, plastic will warp under heat or cold. I've had it happen). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 Thanks for your tips i'm really enjoying this build, just over a week so far. if this pans out there's 3 more i'd like to build:- i) 2 x 8 compartment all 3rd ii)1 x brake 6 x 3rd my 40th in march so i want Historic Carriages Vol 1 LNER by Nick Campling, hopefully the drawings i need are in there. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Scott, Nice work. Nick Campling's book covers the suburban stock well: once you see the 'cell size' of the compartments you can pretty much build any coach arrangement on a standard length underframe. Photos taken inside the LNER carriage shops reveal that the real things were essentially from standard dimension wooden parts assembled on a 'kit' basis. Now you do know about these? http://www.cooper-craft.co.uk/00carriages.html#kirk Since you are a dab hand with polystyrene... Personally I would use Bachmann's 'Thompson' bogies, which are standard Gresley pattern bogies, only using ABS for those vehicles which need the heavyweight version of the bogie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 yep 34...... i started this...kirk kits a bit further down the page, but i'm enjoying building this one.....if it works out well i'll be building others too! cheers for the link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Just checking in after visiting your other thread Scott. Some nice sharp work by the looks of it. Keep the pictures coming. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 done a bit more work over the weekend, have scribed the doors. will post pix later...just gotta add the 3 hinges per door, add the beading to the panels, make some handles and door knobs and that will be the sides mostly done, just the tops & bottoms to worry about now... scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 You shouldn't model a model, but John Fozard (North Eastern Design) does a kit for the coach you're building - illustrated here about 3/4 of the way down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 12, 2010 Author Share Posted January 12, 2010 You shouldn't model a model, but John Fozard (North Eastern Design) does a kit for the coach you're building - illustrated here about 3/4 of the way down. What exactly do you mean? that comment "You shouldn't model a model" has upset me a tad. i cant afford the 30+ pounds the model would cost me....i have a budget i have to stick too also... 1st i'm enjoying this project too much and i will build more if this turns out Ok, these coaches are for me not you! 2nd so far this project has cost me 2 pounds in plasticard, with enough card left over to make another 1 and 1/2 bodies. 3rd the only expense to worry about is the bogies and possibly the roof, i can get the roof as a kirk spare part at around 3 pound per roof or laminate or roll my own. this makes these carriages more viable to me to build. 4th i can be proud in the knowledge that i have built these myself. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted January 12, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2010 Scott, I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick regarding Jonathan's comment. He was providing you with a link to someone who has modelled the same coach as you to show you a finished model (with all the beading etc) The comment don't model a model was meant that although the picture might help don't just copy the details, but rather work off a prototype photo of the real thing (because the finished model might be inaccurate in some way). Excellent work by the way. Just goes to show what can be done and the fact it is only costing you a few quid is a bonus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 12, 2010 Author Share Posted January 12, 2010 sorry, if i came on too strong there....the post sounded like you shouldn't do a model when there's a kit for it. i have some good pictures and drawings of diagram 244. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share Posted January 13, 2010 for all you guys watching my progress here's some update shots..... just gotta add handles, door knobs and hinges, bob's me' uncle will post more soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymzHatstand Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Wow, this really is an impressive bit of scratchbuilding! I take it you're using microstrip for the beading? I've often thought about having a go myself, with maybe something a bit smaller (I've done a couple of 009 waggons, but want to try a coach), how did you manage to get all the window openings cut accurately, ie totally square, and how did you get a consistent curve on the partitions/ends? I'll be following this with much interest! J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Wow, this really is an impressive bit of scratchbuilding! I take it you're using microstrip for the beading? I've often thought about having a go myself, with maybe something a bit smaller (I've done a couple of 009 waggons, but want to try a coach), how did you manage to get all the window openings cut accurately, ie totally square, and how did you get a consistent curve on the partitions/ends? I'll be following this with much interest! J Thanks J i have a few basic tools i cannot work without, i'll post a pic here to show you what i work with later tonight..... anyway here's the list my Vernier calipers (used mainly for marking out) my 4 inch metal square, speaks for itself my swan & morton scalpel (10A being my favoured blade) 300mm steel rule 150mm steel rule 4inch dividers (one point has been filed to a cutting point) some small clamps i made when i was an apprentice, 24 yrs old now! the body sides are laminated, i) 0.8mm for main body, all lines are lightly scribed on to side facing out. these were roughly cut out out then cut out to the line (no file used here) ii) 0.2mm outer shell details to get the relief iii) 0.5 micro strip for beading on panels, 0.5 is a bit big but i couldn't find anything smaller as per picture below the red lines are 0.2mm thk outer panel, the door stips are wider and then scribed. the blue line is a score on the back of the 0.8mm for the tumblehome the green square is the door vent, these are on top of top door panel filler (other red box at the top of the door, as for the roof curves, several panels are cut to rectangle size, the front and back pieces have the curves marked out, these are clamped together then shaped by cutting with scalpel to rough shape then filed. i'm not sure if this was a good move because i'm having trouble with making the roof at the moment, again i'll post a pic of my 1st effort (the first roof i've had a crack at making and its rubbish Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Hi Scott, I think we've just stumbled on the drawback of this kind of communication - it's very easy to be misinterpreted and it's only now that I find the forum up and can reply and try to explain. Taz has got it right; I was only observing that you shouldn't use a model to make a model. I certainly wasn't trying to tell you you shouldn't be building these. I knew I'd seen a D 244 somewhere and having found it thought you might be interested. I do some scratchbuilding myself, though I haven't graduated to coaches yet and I find it's much easier somehow to visualise the end product if I have something three dimensional to look at. If you've got drawings and photos then you're going about it the right way. You're certainly doing a top job. Which Railway Modeller was this published in, incidentally? I'm interested in the plastic sheet you're using; Slaters and Evergreen (which are what I usually work with) are graded in thousandths of an inch, 40 thou being 1mm thick. Most of your sizes fall between the graduations available (40, 30, 20, 10) - where do you obtain yours from? There were some articles by Steve Banks in Model Rail and BRM which covered scratchbuilding chassis and altering panels for Gresley coaches which might be of interest to you. One of the things he did (I think this is where I got the idea from) was to do with the beading. As you say, .5mm (20 thou) is a bit big but it's about the only thing available. What he did was to make the panel inside the beading slightly small (I think he did that in .25mm/10 thou) then use .5mm/20 thou rod around it. The effect was to reduce the relief of the beading and make the overall size of the panel correct. Roofs are always a pain. I make my coaches come apart at the solebar because I'd never be able to hide the gap if the roof was removable. I'll be interested to see how you get on with yours. I'm sorry for the crossed wires - please keep posting as this is the kind of thing the forum needs more of! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 jwealleans, sorry again for jumping off at the deep-end. thanks for your kind comments. i use what ever i can lay my hands on really, i haven't scratched built anything else, apart from my southminster station. in at the deepend eh? the station is all guesstimated using a superquick door frame of 12mm x 24mm, everything has been guessed from this size i.e. 'if it looks ok, then it is' didn't realise there was a kit for dia 244, i got a couple of kirk kits a year or 2 ago as pressies, so i've used these anf the railway model article and these to get my dimensions and ideas on how to do things. i'm hatching a new plan to build the roof, will post pix of this and my first effort later tonight. any thoughts or suggestions welcome. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2512silverfox Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Back in 1970 David Jenkinson devised a method of scratchbuilding coaches which he shared with a number of us and which we still use up to now. The basic coach is formed of a box, usually in 4mm with a 30thou main side and 60thou base. The side was then built up to the correct profile and beading, etc added as a last touch. The glazing slid between the inner side and the outer 20thou contoured side. It really need a diagram which I could produce if it would help, but in the meantime I have added a 4mm GN built Compo brake pantry twin built by this method. The lower beading is 10thou X 20thou microstrip, and the roof is ex Kirk. The beauty of this method is that the sides can be built complete before being attached to the coach frame and partitions which in turn only have to be produced square. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2512silverfox Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Sorry I missed the attachment! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Thanks J i have a few basic tools i cannot work without, i'll post a pic here to show you what i work with later tonight..... anyway here's the list my Vernier calipers (used mainly for marking out) my 4 inch metal square, speaks for itself my swan & morton scalpel (10A being my favoured blade) 300mm steel rule 150mm steel rule 4inch dividers (one point has been filed to a cutting point) some small clamps i made when i was an apprentice, 24 yrs old now! the body sides are laminated, i) 0.8mm for main body, all lines are lightly scribed on to side facing out. these were roughly cut out out then cut out to the line (no file used here) ii) 0.2mm outer shell details to get the relief iii) 0.5 micro strip for beading on panels, 0.5 is a bit big but i couldn't find anything smaller as per picture below the red lines are 0.2mm thk outer panel, the door stips are wider and then scribed. the blue line is a score on the back of the 0.8mm for the tumblehome the green square is the door vent, these are on top of top door panel filler (other red box at the top of the door, as for the roof curves, several panels are cut to rectangle size, the front and back pieces have the curves marked out, these are clamped together then shaped by cutting with scalpel to rough shape then filed. i'm not sure if this was a good move because i'm having trouble with making the roof at the moment, again i'll post a pic of my 1st effort (the first roof i've had a crack at making and its rubbish Scott J here's a few shots of my essential tools...forgot to add my needle files Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Sorry I missed the attachment! Nick, those coaches look magnificent. can you recommend a 'how to scratch build coach' book? Scott. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobbler Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Anyway, evening chaps.....as promised a couple of shots of roof mk i. pretty pant's i'm sure you'll agree not is all lost, i'm going to use the roof rib formers, but my cunning plan is to lay strips of plasticard 1mm thk x 1.5mm wide 'longways' across the roof ribs, let dry, use some squadron putty, then shape and sand, possibly cover the result in 0.2 thk sheet to finish then detail. i'll post pix on my progress, if this doesn't work, i'll try making a card roof, if this fails theni may have to bite the bullet and ......'buy'.....dread the thought.......some roofing, unless anyone else can think of a way of making a roof. wish me luck Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Hi Gobbler, This is looking superb keep it coming. I have never tried it but read somewhere that if you fasten a sheet of plasticard around a tin can and hold with either masking tape or elastic bands and dip it into a pan of hot water - being very careful not to burn yourself and then put it in cold water to retain the curve. Best of luck with what ever method you try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markeg Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Hi Scott, Looks good. When taking photos, try standing back a little more and focusing in further with the camera and you will get rid of the fuzzy focus photos. Then we can appreciate your hard work more. regards Mark. I have attached a photo of my work below. I have just discovered how to attach photos. der! This was published in BRM October edition. Valance fell off when testing on Kitchen car. Now firmly attached. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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