Rolling backwards for 2 miles

[Kenton]

I think the relationship between "sleepiness" and "alertness" is very much statistical fudge. The words "self assessed" on that graph also may cover many hidden realities.

 

My own view on the subject, as one who works nights on a permanent basis and who "requires" only 2-4 hours "solid" sleep per day, is that the relationship to alertness is very undefinable.  My own experience is that changing shift patterns can be very disorientating so is generally a very bad thing to do, and long ago realised that swapping rotating shifts was the best move. I'm not sure all employers recognise that. Another issue regarding sleep is that it is the uninterrupted deep sleep period that is the most important.

 

Another factor that impacts considerably on alertness is the type of work performed. (and this applies to day work as well as night/shift work) monotonous tasks, or situations of continuous focus, or inactivity are very heavily linked to not being alert.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Just an unrelated but significant memory for me. I arrived at work at about 9am one day after a full day's work the previous day and was sent home that day in order to drive a coach service that left at 12.30am and got back in at 10am. During the trip was a 45 minute break at the final destination.

 

When I picked up the coach it had little fuel. i spent most of my break putting in £200 of diesel.

 

I cannot remember much of the return trip except that it was a complete nightmare trying to remain awake as the passengers slept.

 

I later learned that a previous driver that they had pulled this stunt on had actually fallen asleep and rammed a slower car on the motorway.

 

Very few employers realise that the adjustment from day to night work takes several days and that the real adjustment never really works. We humans are just not designed to be fully functional or productive for complex tasks between 11pm and 6 am.

 

Always remember that these days the person developing the rosters hasn't had to work them and the guy who signs them off never will.

[Kenton]

Just to add I really hate working day shifts for all the reasons why those who hate working night shifts. If you are one of those who requires little sleep then day shifts are a nightmare. You end up around the house when everyone else is asleep, there is little to do (or can be done) outside - its dark, DIY is out of the question - you wake up those asleep and the neighbours - what are you expected to do? Then there is all that time and personally productive time during the day when you are at work! I know it is not for everyone and those that cannot cope probably should stick to the day job. But for some it fits in with their way of life.

 

The problem comes when those who hate it and do not adjust their lives to it are asked to work nights. They often cannot adjust their lives to it and continue to do the same activities during the day with the same meal times and forget to move their biological clock forward the same as their work clock.

[emac]

an intresting incident as I was re reading The West Highland Railway by John Thomas where on page 139 he recalls a story of a brake van on the early morning ghost train which broke its coupling between it and the rest of the train at Corrour and ran back towards Rannoch with guard fast asleep eventually it stopped the other side of Bridge of Orchy both the signalmen at Rannoch and Gorton did not derail it as the speed it had gathered may have killed the guard the van ran back 25 miles.

[The Stationmaster]

I think the relationship between "sleepiness" and "alertness" is very much statistical fudge. The words "self assessed" on that graph also may cover many hidden realities.

 

Another factor that impacts considerably on alertness is the type of work performed. (and this applies to day work as well as night/shift work) monotonous tasks, or situations of continuous focus, or inactivity are very heavily linked to not being alert.

I fully agree with the above points made by Kenton and was noticeable that we had far more instances of Signalmen falling asleep on duty on 'quiet' night turns than was ever the case when 'boxes were busy.

 

Going on to another point Kenton made I think we all tend to have our 'favourite' times of day/turn of duty and it does fit with the identified pattern of some folk being 'morning people' while others are 'evening/night people' - I and, someone else on here who I know quite well, much prefer late turn to anything else with nights coming a close second and early turns being something to be hated notwithstanding the afternoon off which they create. Years ago at one depot where I was based one of the Secondmen regularly swapped for a turn starting at about 02.30 (one of the most hated jobs in his link so an easy swap for him) and in the end he left the railway to become a milkman - which, if nothing else, guaranteed an early morning start every working day.

 

Roster patterns are an area which I was involved with for a large chunk of my full time railway career. Gardually the traditional basic pattern of a three shift rotation in weekly chunks (or something approximating to it for traincrew) has been overtaken by other ideas including a lot of attention to Circadian Rhythm in the early 1990s which produced some new ideas for the way in which roster patterns could change and also for turn lengths because the latter can become a significant issue in relation to problems such as SPADs etc.

[Guest Phil]

I'm pleased to record that I haven't worked regular night shifts since 1973. I did 5 years of round-the-clock work in Control, with a week of nights every 4th week. The first night - Monday, was usually the worst, as stated in the report, but after a few nights - and assuming an undisturbed day in bed - the body adjusted. I occasionally worked a fortnight of nights, and while that knackered your social life, it did become a very tolerable routine in other respects. In those days "doubling back" off nights was normal - you finished Monday morning,and were back 8 hours later for late shift, which could be hard work, not least because Monday would be the day when problems often arose, due to that week's rosters for traincrews etc being new.

 

It's my week of nights and we do 74 hours over 7 nights (by choice I hasten to add) Our 9 week roster means we only get nights five times a year which makes it tolerable. I have fortunately managed to get tonight off for my sweetie's birthday - something I don't normally do, preferring to work the rostered week.

.

It has been suggested that having a secondman in the cab might have promoted greater alertness. True, but human nature suggests in many cases the secondman would be sent off to get his head down in the back cab!

 

More likely the secondman in "the chair" and the driver in the back cab. Traditionally, the mate was sometimes as much a hindrance as a help.

 

Going back to the topic though, what surprised me is the lack of (apparent) interaction by the loco as it was (apparently) coasting backwards at 50mph whilst the reverser was in for'ard. Speaking to the shift fleet engineer this week about our TOC's fleet, I asked him what a voyager would do if a similar scenario occured. I.E the train was coasting backwards whilst the reverser was in forward. He said the voyager would take a dim view of it, and all sorts or warnings and interventions would happen. This led me to wonder about the same loco working a freight through the channel tunnel - which I believe is the same 1:75 gradients in places. In the very very unlikely event of a driver becoming disorientated, would the 92 dump the brake, at maybe a predetermined speed over say 10mph. Based on the report, obviously not.

[Mike Boucher]

Is this right?

 

"at the time of the incident it comprised class 92 electric locomotive number 92019 and 13 wagons; including the locomotive the train was 498 metres long and weighed 715 tonnes"

 

Looking up on the web, the loco is 21 meters long, which means each wagon is about 37 meters long. That seems a bit large, seeing as US autoracks are only about 24 meters long...

[Glorious NSE]

It was an intermodal working, so it will likely have been comprised at least in part of wagons with more than one platform per wagon, like the IKA/FKA 'Megafret' or IFA/FIA 'Multifret' designs.

[Glorious NSE]

This led me to wonder about the same loco working a freight through the channel tunnel - which I believe is the same 1:75 gradients in places. In the very very unlikely event of a driver becoming disorientated, would the 92 dump the brake, at maybe a predetermined speed over say 10mph. Based on the report, obviously not.

 

Would the TVM signalling in the tunnel kick in and stop it if it thought it was making an unauthorised move?

[Fat Controller]

Phil,

Should a 92 start to run backwards (or run forwards when it shouldn't) in the Tunnel, or any other route covered by TVM then:-

The emergency brake is automatically applied- after a very short interval.

The pantographs drop, again after a very short interval.

The train sends an automatic emergency call to the relevant signalling centre.

The reason for the very short delay before brake application and pans dropping is that wheel-slip produces a similar set of signals (effectively an overspeed) to the Automatic Train Protection; the delay gives the driver a chance to correct the slip.

This function also provides an anti-runaway device at the two Eurotunnel terminals- should a departing train pass a predetermined point at less than a predetermined speed (5kph), then the ATP applies a full emergency brake application and drops the pans; this is because this movement has similar characteristics to a run-away.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Look at the time the event happened, just before 2 am. Anyone who has worked night shifts knows when errors, incidents and accidents peak, and why; there is a large body of evidence from a range of industries around the world, and the data is very consistent.

Yep, just one more bit of evidence for a very consistent effect. The safest way to work nights is to do it full time. I have seen a (good) skilled operator on noisy high vibration heavy plant equipment with an alert bell ringing just six feet away - at which distance it was painful - absolutely sound asleep. Fortunately the kit was designed to stop safe and sound the alert bell to call (my) management attention. It was 13:53 when he started Zzzzing...

[LMS2968]

It also happened at Kings Cross on 9th February 1945: a heavy train stalled in the tunnel and began to move backwards. Although the crew knew they were physically moving, they were unaware in the darkness of the direction of that movement, there being no external visible referrences to tell them. This is similar: in the darkness the driver had no visible indications of the direction of movement until he saw the receeding green signals. There isn't anything in the cab to indicate in which direction the train is actually running as the speedometer reads in both directions. But as pointed out in the report, the situation is too rare to make installation of such an indicator worthwhile.

[Mike Boucher]

It was an intermodal working, so it will likely have been comprised at least in part of wagons with more than one platform per wagon, like the IKA/FKA 'Megafret' or IFA/FIA 'Multifret' designs.

 

OK. That makes sense. I was unaware that it was intermodal, and also that articulated units were common in the UK. Interesting cars there...

[Edwin_m]

Not strictly articulated, that would imply two adjacent bodies sharing a single bogie. They have two bogies each like conventional wagons but in service are permanently coupled in pairs with the inner ends not having standard buffers and couplings. A little like the original Freightliner flats which normally operated in fives.

[298]

Just to add I really hate working day shifts for all the reasons why those who hate working night shifts. If you are one of those who requires little sleep then day shifts are a nightmare. You end up around the house when everyone else is asleep, there is little to do (or can be done) outside - its dark, DIY is out of the question - you wake up those asleep and the neighbours - what are you expected to do? Then there is all that time and personally productive time during the day when you are at work! I know it is not for everyone and those that cannot cope probably should stick to the day job. But for some it fits in with their way of life.

 

The problem comes when those who hate it and do not adjust their lives to it are asked to work nights. They often cannot adjust their lives to it and continue to do the same activities during the day with the same meal times and forget to move their biological clock forward the same as their work clock.

 

I've been doing 12 hour shifts for about 15 years now (4 days on, 4 off, 4 nights on, 4 off, and always a 6 o' clock start), and have seen just about every dodge going from others in order to survive and whinge that doesn't do them any favours. I think the easiest way to get on is to look at the positive aspects such as booking a shift block off means not having to do days or nights for 28 days, and having more useable time away from when everyone else is off work at weekends. Conversely, there are others who'll moan at every available opportunity about having to work weekend nights or going to bed really early because they have to get up the next day, and really shouldn't be working these shifts if it bothers them so much.

[Dagworth]

When I was a driver at Charing Cross we worked a two shift system, early one week and late the next, nights could either be very late starts as part of lates or very early (00:01) as part of earlies. We had some early shifts that started around 9 am too.

I hated earlies, I still can't wake up in the morning, and so had an arrangement with one of the guys on the other shift that he would do my earlies and I'd do his lates. This was great and for about two years I worked a regularish shift of constant late turns. The other guy was happy as he liked earlies. Management eventually decided that we weren't allowed to carry on with this arrangement for some reason which seems daft to me, regular sleep patterns regardless of the actual hours that you sleep and are awake have to be better from a safety viewpoint.

 

Andi

[Fat Controller]

When I was a driver at Charing Cross we worked a two shift system, early one week and late the next, nights could either be very late starts as part of lates or very early (00:01) as part of earlies. We had some early shifts that started around 9 am too.

I hated earlies, I still can't wake up in the morning, and so had an arrangement with one of the guys on the other shift that he would do my earlies and I'd do his lates. This was great and for about two years I worked a regularish shift of constant late turns. The other guy was happy as he liked earlies. Management eventually decided that we weren't allowed to carry on with this arrangement for some reason which seems daft to me, regular sleep patterns regardless of the actual hours that you sleep and are awake have to be better from a safety viewpoint.

 

Andi

I used to have a similar arrangement with a colleague. She couldn't stand mornings; I felt (and feel) the same way about nights. With our shift pattern, it was simple for me to have two (vice four) days off at the beginning of a cycle, then do four Earlies two Lates, four Off, until one or other went on to Cover. At that point, I'd be two shifts ahead of where I was meant to be, so would get six off..

Now, alas, she's gone to work on the real railway, so such swaps are less frequent. Worse, our starts have gone back to 06:30 CET, and the shifts are invariably in Calais, which means an 03:30 (UK) alarm.

[The Stationmaster]

When I was a driver at Charing Cross we worked a two shift system, early one week and late the next, nights could either be very late starts as part of lates or very early (00:01) as part of earlies. We had some early shifts that started around 9 am too.

I hated earlies, I still can't wake up in the morning, and so had an arrangement with one of the guys on the other shift that he would do my earlies and I'd do his lates. This was great and for about two years I worked a regularish shift of constant late turns. The other guy was happy as he liked earlies. Management eventually decided that we weren't allowed to carry on with this arrangement for some reason which seems daft to me, regular sleep patterns regardless of the actual hours that you sleep and are awake have to be better from a safety viewpoint.

Andi

 

That truly is a daft management attitude in my view. Provided there are proper rest intervals are obviously essential (as are 'Hidden 18' maximum hours from a managerial viewpoint, or whatever applies now) but everything else considered if people make proper exchanges - short term or long term - for turns which best suit their own body rhythm it is clearly a good thing all round especially from a safety viewpoint.

[Rugd1022]

Morning Mike,

 

Just going back to one of your earlier posts for a mo, we do still have the odd rest day midweek on a week of late turns which isn't too bad. We used to have more of them on weeks of nights though, which played havoc with our body clocks. Occasionally we're asked to move rest days around to keep certain jobs covered (work is picking up slowly and we're now two men down) but we still have to be mindful of disturbing our 'normal' sleep patterns. As others have already said, the first shift on a week of nights is always the worst, personally I find it easier if I do as little as possible in the hours leading up to that shift... some light modelling, reading and catching up on RMWeb usually works

[Guest Phil]

 

When I was a driver at Charing Cross we worked a two shift system, early one week and late the next, nights could either be very late starts as part of lates or very early (00:01) as part of earlies. We had some early shifts that started around 9 am too.

I hated earlies, I still can't wake up in the morning, and so had an arrangement with one of the guys on the other shift that he would do my earlies and I'd do his lates. This was great and for about two years I worked a regularish shift of constant late turns. The other guy was happy as he liked earlies. Management eventually decided that we weren't allowed to carry on with this arrangement for some reason which seems daft to me, regular sleep patterns regardless of the actual hours that you sleep and are awake have to be better from a safety viewpoint.

Andi

That truly is a daft management attitude in my view. Provided there are proper rest intervals are obviously essential (as are 'Hidden 18' maximum hours from a managerial viewpoint, or whatever applies now) but everything else considered if people make proper exchanges - short term or long term - for turns which best suit their own body rhythm it is clearly a good thing all round especially from a safety viewpoint.

 

 

I can understand how this made you feel Andi, and why you think it is a daft management decision Mike, but there is a very valid reason for it these days. The TOC I work for has a number of diversionary routes which I used in times of crisis. On the Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway (MDTR) crew route and skill competency has to be proved rather than just signed for. This means that a driver should be able to have evidence of working the routes he/she signs.

 

To comply with this some TOCs in some circumstances have odd trains timetabled over diversionary routes. These are generally the first or last service of the day - some XC examples ;

 

The first Manchester-Bournemouth departure is timetabled via Chat Moss, Styal or "main line" on different days of the week to keep drivers and TMs competent.

 

The last Reading-Birmingham is timetabled to divert from Didcot Parkway round to Foxhall Jn to reverse, then booked route to Stechford, where it diverts via Aston and Soho Road, arriving New St via Monument Lane.

 

Other diversions include Thrybergh, Barnsley, Kidderminster, various routes around Glasgow and Laverstock.

 

You'll appreciate that a driver who swaps for regular earlies is never going to go round Foxhall Jn, Thrybergh or Glasgow and will lose competency. Correspondingly, the regular PM man is never going to get across Chat Moss.

 

This has happened a number of times and is costly to the company in terms of releasing a driver or guard to refresh or relearn a route, whilst the company pays for someone else to cover the job on the day the original crew cannot do it.

 

Not sure how long you have been off the footplate Andi, but the system has changed massively, but don't draw me into whether it is better !!!

 

There is a reason for shift work and I've been doing it for 33 years. It suits me and I just get on with it, but the worker is largely responsible for their actions from day to day. We all know we have to sleep for a proportion of the 24 hours and it is up to us to make that work one way or another, or consider a career change.

[Dagworth]

At the time this was happening we'd just lost pretty much all our mainline work and were then a suburban only depot, route knowledge didn't come in to it. It was all down to that my 'face didn't fit', proved when they tried to have me for drugs, I got an apology for that one when the medscreen proved that I was clean. I left at the end of 97.

 

Andi

[jamie92208]

After 30 years of shift my attitude is that there is no such thing a a good shift pattern, just a least worst. Though I always enjpyed the work on nights, with just the job and no senior management, I found them harder to adapt to once I got past 40. My experience was that it was the 2nd night shift that was hardest as I never adapted to sleeping in the day till after the 2nd shift, As anno domini wore on I tried such things as a blackout blind, earplugs, and eye mask along with nightols from the chemist. I did however hear our force doctor give a lecture about this and he said that the problem with most night workers is that they tend to sleep as soon as thye finish work in the morning, then have full afternoon/evening, trying to ahve alife and then go to work. Ideally we should jusy timeshift our day and go to bed in the afternoon, sleep the required amount then get up, have breakfast and go to work with time for hobbies when we finished work. As the Dr explained, the ideal logically is not always the best socially.

[Kenton]

I did however hear our force doctor give a lecture about this and he said that the problem with most night workers is that they tend to sleep as soon as they finish work in the morning, then have full afternoon/evening, trying to ahve  alife and then go to work.  Ideally we should just timeshift our day and go to bed in the afternoon, sleep the required amount then get up, have breakfast and go to work with time for hobbies when we finished work.  As the Dr explained, the ideal logically is not always the best socially.

</p>That is important and very rarely applied especially by those continually swapping shift patterns.

 

It is exactly the same as with crossing timezones and "jet lag" - critical are meals. If your body is used to meal breaks and meal types in a certain order then you need to maintain that order as much as possible. On nights swapping the breakfast and evening meals is particularly important. Unfortunately the rest of the family run on an entirely different schedule.

[Fat Controller]

</p>That is important and very rarely applied especially by those continually swapping shift patterns.

 

It is exactly the same as with crossing timezones and "jet lag" - critical are meals. If your body is used to meal breaks and meal types in a certain order then you need to maintain that order as much as possible. On nights swapping the breakfast and evening meals is particularly important. Unfortunately the rest of the family run on an entirely different schedule.

Having spent the last 16 years working shifts in CET, my meal-times have shifted forward to conform to the French norms. It may only be 10:06 to most people on here, but to me, it's already 11:06, and lunch is beckoning.

[The Stationmaster]

Having spent the last 16 years working shifts in CET, my meal-times have shifted forward to conform to the French norms. It may only be 10:06 to most people on here, but to me, it's already 11:06, and lunch is beckoning.

So that's your next 3 hours of the day settled then Brian