Dambusters Declassified

[45156]

This was on BBC2 last night, and is a very interesting documentary debunking some of the myths and misunderstandings over the raid on the Ruhr dams by the famed 617 squadron.

 

It puts Guy Gibson's true attitude to his squadron into a different light, and also manages to give a great insight into what really happened on that operation, and takes some of the facts that were regarded from the film as being truth, and turns a lot of them on their heads.

 

Presented by Martin Shaw, (an actor for whom I have a lot of time and who is a trained and skilled pilot), it made a very interestng hours viewing, and if it is on the watch again features, it really does warrant a watch. If anybody else saw this, I'd be interested to know what they thought of it.

 

Just of interest, my old friend Bill Perring painted his impression of the training for this mission, and can be seen here

 

http://www.darcycollection.co.uk/darcycollection/practicerun.htm

[2ManySpams]

Yes i saw this last night. Very interesting documentary that actually managed to be intelligent unlike the dumbed down offerings that seem to be the model these days.

 

I missed the first 15mins but will keep an eye open for the repeat.

 

Martin got a ride in a Lancaster - lucky devil!

[Pinkmouse]

As with all these "celebrity" documentaries, it depends on liking the celebrity involved. Good story, but for me, ruined by Martin Shaw's stuff to camera. Frankly, I don't care about an actor's personal feelings, I want information so I can make up my own mind.

[PaulRhB]

Yes interesting, I did find some of his bits to camera slightly dragged out but I didn't think it spoilt it. Quite a balanced look debunking the perfect glorification of the film but without demonising them either. The section on the impact on the people living in the shadow of the dams was also well done where he admits the terror of decisions made in wartime but balanced that with the pride he still feels in bomber commands men and what they did. The comments from the experienced RAF pilot ,( flew missions in Iraq ), who flew him were also priceless in giving perspective to just how dangerous it was. Listening to the chat between the two aircraft about being amazed how they got the Lancasters down over the Derwent Dam and the comment about the Geneva convention banning attacks on Dams since WWII were subtle but important.

[2ManySpams]

I was amazed by the bit where they said that one of the Lancasters flew so low over the sea that the bomb was ripped off and that water came into / over the plane. That must rate as a very close near-miss!

 

Also interesting that the Germans recovered one of the bombs from a crashed lanc and created their own rocket boosted version. Churchill was obviously right to install anti plane / bomb measures on some of our dam sites.

[Ian Fisher]

I had a virgin book on the subject a few years ago, which for me painted an even clearer picture than this documentary.

 

The RAF Museums also do a nice compact read on the raids and the routes taken

 

Some areas lasnt night seemed to have a light touch about them but overall such better viewing than yet another talent show

 

Ian

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This was on BBC2 last night, and is a very interesting documentary debunking some of the myths and misunderstandings over the raid on the Ruhr dams by the famed 617 squadron.

 

It puts Guy Gibson's true attitude to his squadron into a different light, and also manages to give a great insight into what really happened on that operation, and takes some of the facts that were regarded from the film as being truth, and turns a lot of them on their heads.

 

Presented by Martin Shaw, (an actor for whom I have a lot of time and who is a trained and skilled pilot), it made a very interestng hours viewing, and if it is on the watch again features, it really does warrant a watch. If anybody else saw this, I'd be interested to know what they thought of it.

 

Just of interest, my old friend Bill Perring painted his impression of the training for this mission, and can be seen here

 

http://www.darcycoll...practicerun.htm

 

Thanks for that heads up. I have just watched it. I have been to the Mohne dam. It is not very far from Dortmund and I was attending the modellbau at the time.

 

The damage is just about visible even now and there is a museum near the dam in which it is very obvious that the Germans were and still are awestruck by the technology and the bravery of the flight crews.

 

I agree that the result was inconclusive but the effect on German morale is harder to gauge. Up to that point, they had really had it all there own way and they were still in charge of Europe.

[DonB]

Agree with most of the above sentiments. Thought it one of the best TV programmes I've seen, Martin Shaw notwithstanding! Not seen details of the flooding effects before either.

[The Stationmaster]

Overall I thought it very good and as a 'celebrity presenter' Martin Shaw was well suited to the task, which made a difference.

 

Can't wait for the repeat to be honest B)

[Ohmisterporter]

I used to work with a former Lancaster pilot, his name was Fred. He completed two tours, an achievement in itself, but was never decorated, which he felt disappointed about. He said it was because of his rank, Flight Sergeant, when Pilot Officers were decorated for completing one tour. I had the feeling there was something a bit deeper but didn't press the point.

He knew Guy Gibson though he was on another squadron. Fred said he survived by flying to the target, dropping the bombs, and flying away. Never,never, go 'stooging around' after you have dropped the bombs. That was how Guy Gibson got himself and his crew killed. Nevertheless Fred would have gone on the dambusters raid like a shot.

 

There were a lot of brave men doing fantastic deeds as part of their service without thinking it was extraordinary at the time. On both sides. They have my utmost respect and thanks.

 

Geoff.

[Jemstein123]

I watched this with my partner and found it very interesting,

then i watched the film which was on BB2 at 11.30pm till 1.30am

Fantastic!

[Kris]

I would defiantly agree that was an interesting watch, but I almost turned it off after the first 10 minutes having already become feed up with Martin Shaw's presentation style. I can't put a finger on what it was I didn't like about his style but something really grated with me. Personal choice and all that. Despite this I'm glad I persevered and would still recommend the program.

[Rugd1022]

I made a point of switching off RMweb last night and sitting down to watch it with the missus, I thought it was well put together and explained a lot. Like many on here I suspect, I grew up on a diet of classic British war films and The Dambusters has always been one of my favourites, until last night I hadn't watched it for some time but enjoyed it once more, despite now knowing that it wasn't entirely accurate. As Martin Shaw mentioned in his commentary, much of the information required by the film crew was still classified, after all the film was made only ten years after the war had ended, so I guess they had to 'fill in the gaps' as best they could. I'm amazed that Gibson was only 24 years old when he was put in charge of 617 Squadron, it certainly makes you think doesn't it?

 

Depite some of the special effects in the film not being up to scratch compared to those of today, I think visually it's still one of the best films ever made, the shots of the Lancasters on the ground just before the raid commenced are quite beautiful, and the throbbing of the engines as they fly over the dams usually brings a lump to the throat. Our technical drawing teacher at school was a tail gunner in Lancasters during the war (not a dam buster though), some of the things he told us would put hairs on your chest. On one mission his aircraft returned to base and made a bad landing, the tail wheel broke off and the rear gun turret he was sitting in was severely damaged and he had to be cut out of it. I take my hat of to those Bomber Command chaps.

 

I read somewhere that Peter Jackson (Lord Of The Rings etc) is making a new version of the film...

 

Nidge

[45156]

Interesting responses there and I personally did not mind Martin Shaw's pieces to camera as much as some others did on here. He had one primary qualification for this, and that is that he is a pilot, so can appreciate more than many talking heads the issues involved in trying to get the results on the mission. OK there are a few other pilot/celebrities but I have to doubt that Gary Numan would have had the gravitas for this exercise.

 

One thing that I noticed as well was that they filmed at the 617 Squadron memorial at Woodhall Spa, and I just happened to be passing through that town some years ago, and had to stop to visit - seeing the enormous list of names etched there was a lump in the throat moment like few others that I've had.

 

I've got this on hard drive as well, as I felt that it was one of these shows that might warrant closer examination, and I think that it will - I also recorded the movie, and will now watch that again then a re-run of the documentary.

[Blobrick]

Just checked on on BBC I Player and this programe is still available, just going to watch it myself!!

[bluebottle]

Not bad as TV documentaries go, but there's still a lot more to the story. Paul Brickhill's book "The Dam Busters", although sometimes unfairly criticised as "Boys Own Paper stuff", is still a good read.The script for the film was partly based on the earlier part of the book, which goes on to describe 617 squadron's equally stirring exploits later in WW2. For updated accounts, the books by John Sweetman or Jonathan Falconer are good.

[deltic56]

"Landcasters" Does anybody make a kit of this aircraft, I have heard of a Lancaster though

[Fat Controller]

Just checked on on BBC I Player and this programe is still available, just going to watch it myself!!

It's being repeated on BBC2 at 23:30 tonight (18th October)

[Ian Fisher]

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/max+arthur/dambusters/6132641/

 

This book seems to be one that they took a lot from last night and is well worth a read, it also has many reports from the local inhabitants in the area covered by the dams

 

Ian

[298]

"Landcasters" Does anybody make a kit of this aircraft, I have heard of a Lancaster though

 

Revell do a 1:72 Dambusters Lanc.

 

 

 

Can I just say before anyone else, that Piper Navajo was a bit low, wasn't it....

[PaulRhB]

Never,never, go 'stooging around' after you have dropped the bombs. That was how Guy Gibson got himself and his crew killed. Nevertheless Fred would have gone on the dambusters raid like a shot.

 

Geoff,

I think you may have crossed wires here as Gibson was killed flying a Mosquito on a pathfinder mission and it appears he ran out of fuel due to a fault not because of "stooging around". The reference to looking for flak batteries was part of the pathfinders job too.

This entry from Wikipedia has the same information as I know from other articles.

http://en.wikipedia....n_to_operations

 

http://www.dambuster...g.uk/gibson.htm

[2ManySpams]

"Landcasters" Does anybody make a kit of this aircraft, I have heard of a Lancaster though

 

Schoolboy typo now corrected

[Mr Brunel]

Very interesting documentary, unfortunately I missed the first half.

(PS : I can explain how the bouncing bomb worked if anyone is interested)

[Oldddudders]

Very interesting documentary, unfortunately I missed the first half.

(PS : I can explain how the bouncing bomb worked if anyone is interested)

Am I alone in believing that Mr Brunel explaining the Barnes Wallis principle is kinda surreal?

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Revell do a 1:72 Dambusters Lanc.

 

The Airfix kit to the same scale was reckoned to be the best ever.

 

 

 

Can I just say before anyone else, that Piper Navajo was a bit low, wasn't it....

 

Well yes and the point was made that it might show 100ft on the altimeter but........

 

That wingman was well close. I saw him jink away several times when the Navajo was perhaps drifting. To be frank, I began to wonder what he was doing there. There were a lot of air to air shots of both of them and quite a few out of the Navajo showing the wingman but precious few of the Navajo from the wingman.