Horsetan Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I received a message today from Hattons saying that they hoped that the O1 might arrive on or after 5 November... that's 2012. Presumably there'll be fireworks if it doesn't? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2012 Only Hornby know what the retailer order book looks like. Once they have manufacturing capability for this model it will be that which determines commitment to a manufacturing run. Which of course has to start pretty much any day now for an 'arrives in December' availability for sale. In their shoes, if they aren't to much under the cosh with whatever else is needing doing at the office right now, a release of some pictures showing this model in production might be a good PR exercise. And on the other hand there was SK's reaction when I spoke to him about it at the recent 'Steam' exhibition - ' ... don't ask ..' He could give me approximate dates for the GW 8-coupled tanks - all in this calendar year (although the 72XX is near the end of it so January might be the safer bet in my view) but for the B17 it was just that 'don't ask'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Larry might be spot on the money. A great shame if it doesn't see the light of day - that GER tender had potential for many more classes beside the B17. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Indeed, the short GER tender interested me far more than the loco element. As for SK saying "Don't ask" that surprises me a little from a guy who has always struck me as a good public performer. He must surely know that when the temptation is to say that, the better move is some clear description of the situation, be it good news or bad news. Well, that's how it was in the marketing management playbooks I have worked from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I just think honesty would have been better. If there's any doubt over the B17's emergence as a product, cancel it altogether and let everyone deal with that in a mature fashion, than to keep stringing retailers and consumers along? Personally, I got up close and personal with the B17 model at the NRM's Railfest, and it looked an absolutely beautiful model - on a par with the Thompson L1, which I consider the benchmark for Hornby's recent releases. It will be a crying shame if it never hits the shelves, as on the detail and livery alone, it was probably the best LNER liveried model I've seen produced for a number of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Not sure if I missed something new - but only a little while ago SK did comment on mremag on why the delays with the B17 occured. I'm sure we'll see the B17 though the delay has been annoying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Not sure if I missed something new - but only a little while ago SK did comment on mremag on why the delays with the B17 occured. I'm sure we'll see the B17 though the delay has been annoying. The current economic climate won't help, or their poor Olympic Games sales either! Its not just Hornby, Bachmann have warehouses full of stuff, Dapol are selling direct at shows and undercutting retailers and Heljan are dumping it on Hattons. There is no end in sight either, so it would be a brave man who brings out loads of new models in the near future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Not sure if I missed something new - but only a little while ago SK did comment on mremag on why the delays with the B17 occured. I'm sure we'll see the B17 though the delay has been annoying. It does sound like a no-win situation: bring the model out, and potentially lose money. Or can the thing altogether....and lose money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2012 Indeed, the short GER tender interested me far more than the loco element. As for SK saying "Don't ask" that surprises me a little from a guy who has always struck me as a good public performer. He must surely know that when the temptation is to say that, the better move is some clear description of the situation, be it good news or bad news. Well, that's how it was in the marketing management playbooks I have worked from. It certainly surprised me as it was definitely said with what seemed like bit of resignation (or maybe it was that he is fed up with being asked?) and a hint of the fact/impression that he would also like to know the answer. It has been said by various folk on a number of occasions that Hornby don't know what's in a container arriving from China until they open it on arrival at Margate and while that strikes me as a peculiar way to run a business (how do you manage the finance aspect let alone customer information?) it might be a symptom of their relationship with suppliers - or is it just away of avoiding questions about what is going to be available when? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 If the second source in China couldn't do the B17 and there are now problems with Sanda Kan, this is all very bad news. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Bad news indeed. But Hattons have received advice of probable delivery of the O1 in November and two B17 models in December.... I know it has been said before, but surely such advice would be based on the existence of current or finished production runs? At least for the O1... 5 weeks being a fairly general shipping time from China to the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I expect they must thoroughly regret jumping on the Olympic bandwagon with the resultant pile of unsold tat and the tying up of valuable production slots which might have been more usefully engaged. They'll undoubtedly weather the storm but it'll take a while to smooth out the dents in their reputation. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I expect they must thoroughly regret ... the tying up of valuable production slots which might have been more usefully engaged Dave, the vast majority of the unsold Olympics tat was diecast. Unless they massively overproduced Javelins and Velodromes, I don't think too many model railway production slots were tied up on the Olympics. I believe something else is going on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Fair play Oz, it's only an outsider's perception but I can't help thinking the Olympic production must have nudged some items aside even if it's not the ultimate source of the current difficulties. After two arguably 'niche' models in the form of the 'Clan' and L1, perhaps there was an element of bet-hedging in allowing the more universal B1 to jump the queue ahead of the B17 which, although attractive, wasn't one of those designs you could see across the country. I do hope it makes an appearance before too long though, just because I know that there are many Southern Area modellers for whom it's an important machine. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 .... it's only an outsider's perception but I can't help thinking the Olympic production must have nudged some items aside even if it's not the ultimate source of the current difficulties. Dave, Like you, I'm very much an outsider here too. I'm starting to think that something like the staging of cash flow of payments (to pay for Olympic diecast production ramp up) may have influenced how many railway production slots Hornby committed to in the first half of the year. Kader Industry's said that their contract manufacturing was down by 25% in the first half of 2012 and I don't really understand this. That these things are all interrelated seems plausible to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 The nature of Kader being manufacturer of models for Hornby's main rival Bachmann could mean all kinds of things to do with payment, 'positioning' and it's all smoke and mirrors really. But what would I know? ... when Hornby anecdotally at least cannot even be sure what is in their containers until they land? My sympathies are entirely with Hornby. (and for what it's worth as 'disclosure', Hornby have rights to some of my illustrations) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2012 Dave, Like you, I'm very much an outsider here too. I'm starting to think that something like the staging of cash flow of payments (to pay for Olympic diecast production ramp up) may have influenced how many railway production slots Hornby committed to in the first half of the year. Kader Industry's said that their contract manufacturing was down by 25% in the first half of 2012 and I don't really understand this. That these things are all interrelated seems plausible to me. Very plausible points I think. Clearly production of the Olympics 'stuff' needed to be financed and that money had to come from somewhere (noticing that at the same time Hornby were paying down debt, so presumably the Olympics production was financed out of current working capital - which maybe didn't leave much over to spend on other things?). No doubt a lot of supposition in our estimates of what might or might not have happened but one is certainly left wondering exactly what has gone on and whether they put their bets on the wrong horses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Clearly production of the Olympics 'stuff' needed to be financed and that money had to come from somewhere - which maybe didn't leave much over to spend on other things?. ... [O]ne is certainly left wondering exactly what has gone on and whether they put their bets on the wrong horses? My thoughts exactly Mike. The net debt is not all it appears to be, but I wouldn't focus on that. The trend is not so obvious. The annual report (p5) mentions £17.5m of banking facilities. March 31, 2011 ...... £6.1m* August 31, 2011 ... £14.3m** March 31, 2012 ...... £6.3m* August 31, 2012 ..... £7.8m** * Source: 2012 Annual Report ** Source: September 2012 trading statement Group 'Cash and cash equivalents' from the annual report (p30, March 31) are: 2011 = £4.952m, and 2012 = £1.952m. The interim report for the first half (September 30, 2012), might be scary reading, but we won't see the report for a few months. None of this augurs well for the B17. It appears to be an even sadder story than Tintagel Castle. Hopefully the uneven quality issues (smokebox number, cloudy finish, loose parts) of that otherwise fine model won't be present on the B17 when it ultimately appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Downer Posted September 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 29, 2012 I wouldnt be suprised if Hornby got cold feet over the B17, not convinced it will be a big seller. I've already bought the Tottenham Hotspur nameplates from 247, an Arsenal football nameplate from the Ebay to put behind it (hee hee), and washout plugs from Alan Gibson to correct the number of those. If Hornby cancel I shall sue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2012 I've already bought the Tottenham Hotspur nameplates from 247, an Arsenal football nameplate from the Ebay to put behind it (hee hee), and washout plugs from Alan Gibson to correct the number of those. If Hornby cancel I shall sue! Well, I can tell you Hornby have not decided to cancel it! I've talked to Simon Kohler today at the Peterborough exhibition. He tells me that Hornby employees have been out to China and seen the locos being made, so now even he believes it! He hopes, but of course cannot say for certain given all the delays in the past, that they may be in the shops before Christmas. The 01 should definitely be with us this year. Good news at last. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 A problem in the current economic downturn is too many goodies coming out together pre-Xmas. Okay, I fancy a B17 but it would only be top '0 pile if all the other offerings were Bullied, narrow gauge and industrial... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 A problem in the current economic downturn is too many goodies coming out together pre-Xmas. Okay, I fancy a B17 but it would only be top '0 pile if all the other offerings were Bullied, narrow gauge and industrial... It's not just Hornby and it's something Andy drew attention to a while back as an 'across the hobby' thing; I think it might be even worse this year with 4 WR locos fairly definite as arrivals in November/December with a total retail price of c.£400+, a Midland Pullman at touching £300, an 01 at least for the ER folks plus the Thompson coaches and maybe a B17 so again a total of £300+ for those who want one of each, a C for the Southern and a 'Director' (various) for some Eastern modellers/some others/those who are collecting the NRM specials. And if Heljan come up with the Garratt and various diesels that's another few hundred quid added. Not everybody will be buying everything but they (us) will expect retailers to stock them ready for us to buy - won't we? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Haha! Time to order the 'Hatfield House' plates. With this news the 'heap' of RTR purchases I anticipate arriving around year end is B17, O1, disc headcode class 23, Thompson non-gangwayed - the star items in my view - and the Wainwright C. Normally my anticipated purchase list is dominated by Bachmann, so Hornby are making ground here. As for the money side, I have been saving up. Possibly the last UK resident outside Scotland to be doing such an antediluvian thing, but it works for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 saving up Saving up???????????? I've heard of drinking the Kool Aid, event horizon, fulfilment issues, rightshoring, content management, netiquette, user generated content, vlogging and robbing the piggy......I can't keep up with these new buzzwords. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 It's not just Hornby and it's something Andy drew attention to a while back as an 'across the hobby' thing; I think it might be even worse this year with 4 WR locos fairly definite as arrivals in November/December with a total retail price of c.£400+, a Midland Pullman at touching £300, an 01 at least for the ER folks plus the Thompson coaches and maybe a B17 so again a total of £300+ for those who want one of each, a C for the Southern and a 'Director' (various) for some Eastern modellers/some others/those who are collecting the NRM specials. And if Heljan come up with the Garratt and various diesels that's another few hundred quid added. Not everybody will be buying everything but they (us) will expect retailers to stock them ready for us to buy - won't we? One presumes that retailers have at least ordered most or all of these items. And what a mouth-watering list of RTR models it is! I will be very pleased if we can add weathered 28/28XX 2-8-0s as well as Hattons' Garratts to the pleasures of the next few months. For me, a heavily weathered Garratt says everything about the LMS., the Midlands, smoke, grime, industrial life, and working life in days before 1955. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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