19th century locomotives

[brian777999]

I quite like the Triang/Hornby "Lord of the Isles" locomotive and its variations but it is not what you would call "finescale" . Has anybody ever modified this model so that it looks more realistic and what where the results ? Some photos would be great.

Failing that, does anybody make a brass kit for this class or any other early steam locomotives from the 19th century ?

[Coppercap]

It's not mine, but there's this one:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro3031.html

[jwealleans]

London Road have recently released an LNWR Single kit which I'm sure is from the 19th century. Ks used to do some in whitemetal as well; see Mozzer's workbench of this parish for a build of one.

 

There are these which look like updated versions of the same thing.

[Nick Holliday]

As noted, London Road Models do a huge range of elderly LNWR locos, the Bloomers, Lady of the Lake and Special Tanks probably being the oldest. But they also do examples from a wide selection of other lines, such as NER, Midland, North Staffordshire etc. but not GWR. For the Great Western, Martin Finney has a good number, but not the Dean single, I'm afraid, (together with some interesting South Western clsses) and Blacksmith have a few others, as does Alan Gibson. Another source is EB Models with a selection of early LBSCR locos, including a pre-Stroudley single, which is similar to a type the Brighton sold on to the East Lancashire Railway and thus ended up in L&YR hands.

[John_Hughes]

How early are you talking about? The K's Milestones range, which included Liverpool and Manchester Lion (though in its Titfield Thunderbolt rebuilt form rather than anything original) was taken over by IKB Models, and the details are here:

 

http://www.keykits.net/Shop/Catalogue.aspx?c=IKB

 

I gather the kits have been revised since K's time, and should be a bit easier to get a good result from.

[jwealleans]

5 & 9 Models for the LBSCR here

 

Southwark Bridge models may also do something old enough here

[Nick Holliday]

Unfortunately the 5&9 locos are no longer in production. The IKB/Milestones Lion doesn't seem to be available either, although the Metropolitan 4-4-0 tank is listed. 5&9 do have a fine range of early passenger and goods stock, though. Although based on LBSCR designs, these early vehicles were very similar across a number of companies, and many of the kits could be used in a non-Brighton context.

[Adrian Wintle]

I quite like the Triang/Hornby "Lord of the Isles" locomotive and its variations but it is not what you would call "finescale" . Has anybody ever modified this model so that it looks more realistic and what where the results ? Some photos would be great.

Failing that, does anybody make a brass kit for this class or any other early steam locomotives from the 19th century ?

 

The last picture here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/28388-adrians-coach-works/ is my simple upgrade of Lord of the Isles.

 

Adrian

[BernardTPM]

Also worth bearing in mind that the latest paint jobs are far superior to the original 1960s/70s finish.

[Nick Holliday]

Just to add to the possible list of Victorian loco kits, Branchlines do the LSWR Ilfracombe Goods and the SER Class O 0-6-0, High Level do a couple of 0-4-0ST's, the Black Hawthorn and a Neilson or two, Roxey does the GWR Metro 2-4-0T and an unusual 0-4-4T, whilst SEFinecast also do the Metro as well as various other early(ish) locos such as the Brighton D1 and E1 (Also available from Roxey as well as the LBSCR Gladstone actually under the Albion name, but only at exhibitions). The reinvigorated Gem range has a few possibilities, most notably the GWR ex Cambrian Sharp Stewart 2-4-0T, which, although modernised by the GWR in the twenties still retained much of its Victorian quaintness. The Mercian range of industrial types may furnish a few more examples, as well as the old Agenoria range which has recenlty changed hands. Caley Coaches are in the process of producing a venerable 0-4-2 tender loco. Peter K also have produced several interesting old-timers, but most, if not all, are currently unavailable. Falcon Brass also had a good range, although their buildability was open to debate, but it seems that they have gone back into hibernation again. There are also dozens more of technically Victorian or 19th century locos that I have ignored as their design is in a more "modern" idiom, being produced towards the end of the 1890's and often perpetuated into the 20th century. Unfortunately there does not appear to be any current source of kits for the very early designs, pre-1860, although the Dean single is not really part of that era.

Returning to the original question, M&L used to make a kit for the Dean single, this range passed into the hands of Alan Gibson, now under new ownership, but this one does not appear to feature in the current list of kits that may or may not appear subject to demand. It does seem surprising that this iconic class isn't available as a kit, but singles don't seem to be that popular, perhaps because of their haulage capacity problems.

[jwealleans]

Unfortunately the 5&9 locos are no longer in production.

 

Is that right? I did check the website, which says "It's taken longer than I had hoped, but I've now returned to casting and the web-site has been updated."

[Guest Belgian]

How about really early prototypes - the Stockton & Darlington and Liverpool & Manchester locos and stock, up to, say, 1840? Are there any models of these available (other than the Triang "Rocket")?

 

JE

[PhilJ W]

IIRC there was an article in one of the model railway magazines about upgrading the GWR single using the Kitmaster/Airfix 'City of Truro' kit as a source of parts for the bogie and tender as well as a few other bits. I'm not sure if Dapol still make this kit but it may well be worth looking into.

[Nick Holliday]

Is that right? I did check the website, which says "It's taken longer than I had hoped, but I've now returned to casting and the web-site has been updated."

Although Chris Cox has re-started production, he is not, at least at the moment, thinking of doing the loco kits, which I think took a lot of extra effort to get right. All of the wagon and coach kits are back in production, and he has introduced a few new items since returning to the fray, but the locos are marked as "discontinued".

[mike morley]

Metropolitan has a thread running at the moment about building a Peter K kit of an 1860's Manning Wardle.

Peter K also does a kit of an 1860's Sharp Stewart goods engine that were used by both the Cambrian and the Furness Railway.

Dragon Models does a kit of an 1880's Sharp Stewart 4-4-0 that, again, was used by both the Cambrian and the Furness Railway

[John_Hughes]

One of the nice things about really early engines - say from about 1840 onwards for a decade or so - is that they're quite straightforward to scratch-build.

 

By that time the technology had already advanced to the stage that the rudiments of 'modern' design were already apparent in things like cylinder placement, controls, valve-gear and the like, but they are often single-driver, usually with tenders (nice to put the mechanism in!), and not so big or complex that they take for ever to make. And the trains were generally very short!

 

Building something much earlier - like Hackworth's Royal George, or Locomotion - would be a much tougher challenge!

[mike morley]

I agree entirely with everything John has just said.

 

The more I research, the further back my interests go. I've got to the stage where I'd love to model the 1860's but am put off by the sheer volume of scratchbuilding that would be required. As all the postings above demonstrate, there are lots of kits of Victorian locos but, unless you model the Premier or Brighton lines, there isnt an awful lot available for them to haul.

 

Last year I visited Beamish Museum and dreaded finding I'd come away from the Pockerly Waggonway wanting to model the 1820's. To my considerable relief I didnt because, as John says, building anything from that far back would be a much tougher challenge.

You want to know why it would be? Take a look at this picture of one of Locomotion's wheels and ask yourself how you'd recreate it or its crankpin in model form. (The Royal George, mentioned by John, had identical wheels)

[brian777999]

I would like to thank everybody for their help and advice. There is a wealth of information to research.

 

I might still buy the Hornby RTR Achilles class locomotives to get me started. I was wondering if it was possible to instal 3 link couplers on these models ? Is the buffer height correct ? I know on a lot of the older Hornby models the buffer height was much higher than it should have been thus making installation of 3 link couplers awkward, if not impossible.

 

One other point to note when modelling older style locomotives is that they often had very elaborate colour/lining schemes. Lining is the one aspect that stops me building many models as I am confident I could build the kit but lining it is the problem.

[Jol Wilkinson]

One of the nice things about really early engines - say from about 1840 onwards for a decade or so - is that they're quite straightforward to scratch-build.

 

By that time the technology had already advanced to the stage that the rudiments of 'modern' design were already apparent in things like cylinder placement, controls, valve-gear and the like, but they are often single-driver, usually with tenders (nice to put the mechanism in!), and not so big or complex that they take for ever to make. And the trains were generally very short!

 

Building something much earlier - like Hackworth's Royal George, or Locomotion - would be a much tougher challenge!

 

John,

 

I think that's only partly correct. While the running gear may be simpler, certainly odd shaped fireboxes, open cab details, boiler fittings, etc. can be much harder. Of the two new London Road Models Large Bloomer kits, the Webb rebuilt version is much more straightforward. Actually, it's probably the easiest tender locos to build in the LRM range of LNWR locos.

 

 

 

 

One other point to note when modelling older style locomotives is that they often had very elaborate colour/lining schemes. Lining is the one aspect that stops me building many models as I am confident I could build the kit but lining it is the problem.

 

Brian,

 

Most of the early liveries were fairly simple. For example the LNWR Southern Division livery - used on the Wolverton based locos until around 1870's - was green with black lining with square corners. Some later versions of the lining had incurved corners of 3" radius. The LNWR Northern Division had a dark (brick" red livery with a light coloured (possibly white or pale grey) lining. It would be possible to reproduce this with something from the Fox Transfers range.

 

It was only when the early railways consolidated into larger companies that they developed more complex paint and lining schemes. Even then it is possible to reproduce many of them with transfers.

 

The GWR Achilles you refer to was introduced in 1894, so isn't that early although, that design of the boiler/firebox looks much older.

 

Jol

[John_Hughes]

John,

 

I think that's only partly correct. While the running gear may be simpler, certainly odd shaped fireboxes, open cab details, boiler fittings, etc. can be much harder. Of the two new London Road Models Large Bloomer kits, the Webb rebuilt version is much more straightforward. Actually, it's probably the easiest tender locos to build in the LRM range of LNWR locos.

 

 

(snipped)

 

Jol

 

I scratched a model of Tiger (Lion's stablemate in original condition) about twenty years ago for a mate, and I was surprised at how easy it was; the firebox is a simple up-and-over wrapper (the brass 'haystack' on Lion is a fake anyway!) and the cab controls consisted of three try-cocks (no sight glasses!), a reversing lever and a regulator. Not even a brake and no injectors, as she used a pump!

 

Sorry, no piccies, as it was well pre the digital age; my friend left this world many years back, and I have no idea where Tiger is now. Anyone seen it by any chance?

[t-b-g]

One name that should be brought up in all discussion on modelling early stuff is Mike Sharman. There seems to have been very little from that sort of era that he hasn't managed to find a way to produce. There have been many articles and books and I am sure that his work was featured on the BBC.

[brian777999]

I have seen books of Mike Sharman's work in the past and it is excellent but I can never find much of his work on the internet. Perhaps somebody has some good links ?

 

NOTE : A huge category 4 cyclone is heading for Cairns, Australia and it will strike in the next 24 hours. The power will probably go off and I may not be able to reply for 4 or 5 days.

[Horsetan]

One name that should be brought up in all discussion on modelling early stuff is Mike Sharman. There seems to have been very little from that sort of era that he hasn't managed to find a way to produce. There have been many articles and books and I am sure that his work was featured on the BBC.

 

Mike Sharman's Victorian mixed-gauge layout has featured on one of the Railscale videos. Never seen it on the BBC (though it could conceivably have popped up in a series presented by Bob Symes). I think his current incarnation is called "Melange".

 

--->Here's a pic of one of his scratchbuilt engines. He likes his Cramptons....

[John_Hughes]

Mike brought his work to the Porthmadog Show a few years back - wonderful stuff, and lovely to see it in the flesh again, so to speak! And of course he worked with the much-missed Dennis Allenden on a book on the Cramptons many long years ago.

 

Cramptons certainly do present a modelling challenge, with the big (sometimes enormous) drivers, and the complicated valve-gear with its workings hung out there for all to see. Not like Tiger with her simple (and almost invisible) gab gear!

 

Thinking about it, a 'near-Crampton' like LaBlache might be an easier proposition, with her 'perfectly balanced' motion and a sensibly-sized wheel at each corner! But then she didn't last for long...

[Forward!]

Two 'out there' suggestions;

 

1) If you're not interested in country, you could model 1860s American railroads in HO with next to no effort at all!

2) Airfix make a super little kit in 1:32 of Trevithicks 1804 steam engine. A working layout based on this would be quite a sight!

 

Will