froobyone Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi all. Over the last couple of days, I've been quietly working away on my layout. With only my thoughts and the occasional, unwanted, visit from the cat, for company, it's left my mind in a position to wander and wonder. Something happened recently on RMWeb, not directly to do with me and I'm not going to highlight here what it was, but it got me thinking about how knowledge can be detrimental to enjoyment. Let me try and explain, by using a benign example. Take the film Top Gun. I happen to like it, apart from the bits when they aren't flying about in F14's. Now the film portrays the MiG 28, black, sleek, fast. But in fact, are F5Es and F5Fs, which are American fighter aircraft. Now, the man on the street, Joe Everyman, doesn't know fluff all about aircraft and he see's the MiG28s as they are supposed to be portrayed. He thinks they are real Russian aircraft. The film looks and feels right. But someone who knows anything about aircraft is jumping up and down in the cinema shouting "They're flipping F5s!" For me, this spoils the film a little. The same thing happened in one of the trashy Iron Eagle movies, when "The Russians are coming!!" and they all turn up in old F4 Phantoms. So because I know a bit about planes, films are spoiled by the lack of, well, reality. So that brings me to model railways. I have a basic knowledge of the prototype. I can tell a 47 from a 50. I know things about Deltics and I know the HST went into service in 1976. I don't know, however, how many 37s were made, or where they were allocated. I don't know which type of coach should be used on a regional train going to Ipswitch in June 1986. The upshot of this, is when I look at a layout, I'm not seeing the errors that might be inherent in the design or operation. So in effect, I can get more enjoyment out of it, than someone who can't help but notice what's wrong with it. It seems, that however hard you try, there's always going to be someone who knows more/cares more than you, who can pick fault with it. Unless you've managed to make a scale, working Napier and have a tiny person manning your real signal box. No one in my real life who's seen my layout, knows anything about trains, except maybe my girlfiend, who knows to shout "Shed!" when a 66 trundles past our window. So they think it's marvellous. They don't see that the ground signals are probably in the wrong place, they just see that I've put the extra effort in to have ground signals in the first place. They are getting more enjoyment out of it, than even I am. They wouldn't care if I had a Warship based at Toton or a Battle Of Brittain class based at my TMD. It's a trainset. They like it. So where does that leave me? Do I learn all there is to be learned, so I can "pass muster" to those with knowledge, or do I stay in my "ignorance is bliss" mode and carry on enjoying my own and other layouts, without such a critical eye. I know most people in this site are very knowledgable and thankfully, not too pernickety, so I imagine the belief will be the more knowledge you have, the better off you are. I'm just not sure myself. Thanks for reading Frooby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Good points made there. My whole take on it is this: If the layout is going out in the public gaze at a show, especially a 'finescale' doober, then I'll make sure the stock fits the location and era. If its set up at the place where it lives, or I'm on my own layout, I'll do as I please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think you're absolutely right. I know only enough about real railways to be able to enjoy myself whilst being blissfully ignorant of all the little foibles that are almost certainly present in my own layout. I used to get the same thing years ago at work when some of the menfolk were leafing through their 'gentleman's literature' and it used to bug me that not a single girl in those images had attached her suspenders properly. But no doubt I digress... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 menfolk were leafing through their 'gentleman's literature' and it used to bug me that not a single girl in those images had attached her suspenders properly. But no doubt I digress... Not so, please do continue..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted February 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2011 The bottom line is, it's your train set and should give you enjoyment. Many people just want to play trains - they run what they want, add scenery if they want and enjoy every minute. Some people get their fun from trying to recreate something to incredible levels of detail and authenticity (Jim S-W's P4 Birmingham New Street springs to mind). Most of the people on RMweb are somewhere between the two. Like any subject you will find that the more you know, the more you don't know. Even something as simple as wanting to add tail lights to your trains can open up a vast array of research into regulations, working practices and design issues. You then have a choice, you can ignore it, compromise or do it right. If you are exhibiting a layout then you need to be clear about what it is. 'Based on', 'an accurate model of', 'representative of' or 'freelance' - and different aspects of the layout can be in different categories (Freelance track plan, operations and stock representative of BR Western Region 1970-6, ....) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wherry Lines Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Daniel, it's your layout. Do as you please, and enjoy it. My layout is too small for a tmd. The sidings aren't long enough, the locos aren't weathered, and I don't operate it prototypically. Do I care? No. Do I enjoy what I'm doing? Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted February 1, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2011 How happy is the moron, He doesn't give a damn. I wish I were a moron, My God, perhaps I am! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfield_Park Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I guess that sometimes ignorance can be bliss, I've found myself feeling a little frustrated sometimes when I spend some time preparing a train and an era, only then to find that the two don't quite fit together. I might set a layout in Spring 1956 and piece together a lovely shiny rake of Maroon Mk1s, only then to discover that full Maroon rakes didn't appear until the summer of that year. It may be such a small thing, but knowing that my layout would be technically incorrect would nonetheless be a particularly distracting niggle. I try and reach some level of compromise on my layouts. I try and ensure a passable degree of realism, but you won't catch me undertaking years of painstaking research into the specifc signal I'm going to need to build. As long as I'm not about to run an EMT HST in 1955, I'm content. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted February 1, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ignorance is bliss is the old saying and it is true. But and it is a very big but it is your railway and if you are happy with it then fine, it seems to me that you actually have built it and learnt more about railways along the way so are not now as happy with the layout as you were. Others with more experience than me would probably say you have reached the stage where a rebuild is required or scrap and start again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 So where does that leave me? Do I learn all there is to be learned, so I can "pass muster" to those with knowledge, or do I stay in my "ignorance is bliss" mode and carry on enjoying my own and other layouts, without such a critical eye. I don't think you can sustain a position of doing your personal modelling for the benefit of some ill defined audience. You need your heart in it, you need to enjoy both the process and the end product, to make it worthwile. I've had various third parties (most likely unwittingly) lead me on different routes in modelling, and most have failed because I've realised "this isn't really doing anything for me". So make your own rules, and live by or break them as it pleases you. Especially, but not exclusively, if it's a home layout. Third parties can work around them as they please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Let me try and explain, by using a benign example. Take the film Top Gun. I happen to like it, apart from the bits when they aren't flying about in F14's. Now the film portrays the MiG 28, black, sleek, fast. But in fact, are F5Es and F5Fs, which are American fighter aircraft. Now, the man on the street, Joe Everyman, doesn't know fluff all about aircraft and he see's the MiG28s as they are supposed to be portrayed. He thinks they are real Russian aircraft. The film looks and feels right. But someone who knows anything about aircraft is jumping up and down in the cinema shouting "They're flipping F5s!" That made me laugh since the Chinese have been caught out reporting that scene as actual news! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
froobyone Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks for the replies. My question was rhetorical really. It wasn't to do with my own skills or knowledge per se, but the concept of the more you know, the less you accept and ipso facto, the less you enjoy. I'm not upset that my peers would find fault with what I've built. I know I've neither the skill, time, nor finances to create something remarkable. As long as some people like it, well, I know that's not important, but it sure gives you a warm feeling inside. I'll continue to enjoy my small layout and use what little knowledge I have, to make the best thing I can. And every now and again, I'll bring a Pacific in and giggle to myself when no one at home notices. Regards Frooby @30801 Just watched that clip, very funny. You can't believe the cheek of it. Let's not mess with the Chinses though, they've just started flight testing their stealth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Interesting question this. I do agree to a certain level, my missus knows nothing of what train ran where or on what, or whether there should be a signal, a point, an AWS ramp, wouldn't even know what one is. She even asked me the question, why don't you just paint that loco however you like, don't you think its a bit unimaginative to just copy the real one? I actually couldn't answer her. I actually thought, you know why not? From an artistic point of view I am restricting myself almost to the levels of a straight jacket! Of course the merits of modelling are somewhat more complex. I do dabble in fantasy, I am also an avid Sci-Fi modeller too. There is something a little special about designing something from scratch. However, modelling something real, and this includes the layout as much as the stock, is more about personal achievement. Making something 'imaginative' dilutes the real world. Lets you get away with mistakes in your modelling as there is nothing to compare it to. Nothing to say, yep that looks right. It about pushing your limits and the only yard stick we have to judge our modelling skill is real life. Making fantasy is in essence making it up, and making it up when you're modelling leads to unconvincing work. Sci-Fi is in essence, making it up. The clue is in the name (Fiction)! However the most convincing Sci-Fi is when you base it on what you know in the real world. We know a star fighter has to fly, we put on wings and a cockpit for the pilot. But is that enough? No of course not we need to add engines to make it go. How does that engine work though? It must need fuel. It must need to be cooled so radiators or fins, it must need panels so that people can access the inside and the mechanical bits. It must need control surfaces for flight in atmospheres, and multidirectional thrusters for space flight. It must have navigational equipment and lights of some kind as it can get pretty dark in space, or at night!. Does it need anything else. Definately. Do we know what? Not really but the more we look at real stuff and add things the more convincing the model stuff will be. We could just say well its alien and they have this technology and that technology so it doesn't need that but all that does is make your model less convincing. We aren't aliens and we aren't used to seeing no human stuff so it looks wrong! As long as we add human stuff we can make any wierd thing look real. The human mind is great, what we do is observe the details and store them away in the darkest reaches of our minds. We don't need to know how a plane flies or how signals work but we all store pictures of how things look and if these things aren't there then they will look wrong even if we don't know whats missing. Something as simple as weathering a loco proves this. Ask any jo bloggs who's never had any kind of interest in trains to look at a layout but run only out of the box stock and he will say its a train. To him it will look like a train set, not a real train. Then show him it with all the trimmings, although he will still say its a train set and not really care probably he would have to admit, it looks more right! More real. Do we need it to look real to have fun? Not as an operator technically, but it feels better to be driving a class 47 than a lump of preformed plastic, but I do believe we need it to look real for the people looking at it as they will find great joy mentally and subconsciously ticking off all of the realism markers, probably not even realising they are doing it most of the time. We have all given an uncontrolled smile when seeing something that increases our sense of realism, stand up comics do this all the time with their observational comedy, as Homer Simpson once said 'Its funny because true'. By the same virtue we get more fun modelling too when we add the details, makes us feel like we have created something, something that looks right, that then makes us feel even better! Especially when someone else feels that rightness too when they look at it. It should be a shared experience and is all the better for it. So is it a question of more knowledge means less fun? I'm not so sure, I think more knowledge means a different kind of fun. A bit like when I used to play on my ZX spectrum in the 80's. If computers never moved on we would all still love our ZX's, and they would be fun. Now sit playing that while the guy next to you plays his Xbox 360! All I know is that when I watched Top Gun I was like 'They are clearly not Mig28's' but I get fun out of spotting stuff like that too!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2011 I don't know which type of coach should be used on a regional train going to Ipswitch in June 1986. If its the Birmingham services generally a 31/4 with 5 mark1s, the European (Glasgow/Edinburgh - Harwich boat train) was formed of mainly 2f stock with a mark 1 buffet, to about ten or eleven coaches in all and a non-stratford 47/4. (Mainly because I worked at Ipswich in that era and that's where and roughly when Dagworth is based) I know what you mean in your OP though, ignorance is bliss. There is also the other side of the coin though, I've had comments about bits that I've put in on Dagworth that most people wouldn't either notice were there or know what they are if they did notice, when those comments are made it does make that extra bit of effort worthwhile. I guess though a lot of that comes from having worked on the railway as a driver, you do see the bits that actually make it function and your layout then isn't satisfying unless it works like the real thing. Trains have to be run with as prototypical signalling as possible, tail lights have to be present etc. Horses for courses? it's your hobby and how you enjoy it is up to you. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I used to get the same thing years ago at work when some of the menfolk were leafing through their 'gentleman's literature' and it used to bug me that not a single girl in those images had attached her suspenders properly. ... :lol: :lol: I vote that "RMweb Quote of the Year"..!!! ...and anyway,isn't that sort of the point in such "Gentlemen's Literature"..?!? Back to the OP, I can certainly relate to the "Ignorance is Bliss" attitude; I think I had just as much fun, if not more, when I had just started doing U.S.-outline and knew very little about it, as I do now that I've 'specialised' my interest particularly into one particular Railroad Company. This was brought home to me recently when a certain layout in Continental Toddler was drawn to my attention as it had Soo Line stock on it... all I could see was the faults and inaccuracies with locos particularly, despite some aspects of the layout being quite good really (scratchbuilt buildings for instance). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2011 We went to the movie Gosfield Park with a friend who is in building, and all he could say at the end was that the plumbing in the servant's quarters was too modern for that time period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2011 Frankly, I'm impressed that your girlfriend can identify a class 66. A young lady of my acquaintance recently informed me that she had travelled to work "on some right old banger". It transpired that she was used to class 317s and had found herself using one of NXEA's refurbished class 315s! Returning to the OP, I've certainly found that the more I research a railway prototype, the less able I feel to model it accurately. C'est la vie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 ... my girlfiend ... And now you know you have a demon in your life, how do you feel? We went to the movie Gosfield Park with a friend who is in building, and all he could say at the end was that the plumbing in the servant's quarters was too modern for that time period. It was the same in Gosford Park, what a coincidence. I will happily accept all sorts of errors on layouts, but spelling errors: BADANG! right between the eyes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2011 What a lovely warm thread! Lots of reputation points being awarded is always a good sign - but often means there is a bit of combat going on, and here there is none. Then we have a lady member referring to Gentlemen's Literature and suspenders - surreal or what? [When Deb - who has never worn suspenders, dammit - started work on BR as a filing clerk in 1974, such literature was filed implausibly under "Crawley Stabling Arrangements", which was odd as Crawley had lost its sidings some years before.] Film makers have a tough time convincing everyone, of course. In "Bad Day at Black Rock" which is set immediately after WW2, so no later than 1946, the opening sequence is of Southern Pacific F7s in Black Widow colours - F7s didn't arrive until 1949. About 20 years ago, Continental Modeller featured a fine Rock Island layout - but the F2s had dynamic brakes. I knew that was wrong - did anyone else? As has been pointed out - who knows that, and does it matter? In this case very few folk and, anyway, hardly at all - in the OP's case of the Cold War fighters, considerably more. A recent thread here began with a fine picture of a fine model scene - with much scaffolded housing in the backscene. "Wow!" I thought, as did plenty of others. Hardly had we done so, mind, when some knowledgeable soul pointed out that the scaffolding was all wrong, lacked this and that, would not be safe etc. Was he wrong to do so? Well, he might have been slightly more gentle in his writing, but if we are anoraks in the first place, presumably deep down we accept even unwelcome advice of this sort? Perhaps that's the point - RMWeb provides a rich resource if you care to ask the question, and are able to act on the factual advice you will probably receive. Many times, of course, we don't realise there is a question to be asked, and that's where we may - er - expose ourselves. I will shortly have a West Park Dairy milk tank on my layout, knowing full well that by the time the wagons were built, West Park had been taken over, so the livery was never actually carried. Had I not bought a particular book, I'd never have known, yet I'm happy to run something mythical. How you balance authenticity & compromise is truly down to you, and you alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 ...I'm currently renumbering a blue and grey Lima HST which I've gone to the trouble of moving the seats in 2nd class to the correct spacing. The problem is one of the 2nd class coaches was a new build in 1984 and would have had the revised seating arrangement with less tables. Do I change the seating in this coach now or wait until I use laser-cut flush glazing in the windows (therefore only removing the roof once)...? Believe me. Ignorance is bliss and the longer you can hold on to it the longer you'll have that child-like innocence for your modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hi All Not sure TBH. Modelling what is really there to the N'th degree is all part of the enjoyment I get from the hobby. Having said that I am only concerned with what things look like. When it comes to what they are or what they do I have no idea! When it comes to signals I will just model what was there at the time. I dont need to know the rules on positioning etc so I guess ignorance is bliss. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I've come to realise that, for me, aquiring the knowledge is more fun than the modelling. I guess I'm turning into a rivet counter (hopefully without the lack of social skills!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Sorry but I can't get along with the whole "ignorance is bliss" attitude, I would much prefer to know the details where possible. If I'm building something where it's as easy to get it right as to do it wrong then I like to get it accurate, although that said once it's done and I find out later that it's wrong then I'm rather ambivalent towards correcting it. These errors occur in films all the time - even today in the paper it mentioned errors in "The Kings Speech" where they've used a typeface that was created in the 1950's. Is it wrong - yes! Does it spoil the film - life's too short to care! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2011 What a lovely warm thread! Lots of reputation points being awarded is always a good sign - but often means there is a bit of combat going on, and here there is none. Then we have a lady member referring to Gentlemen's Literature and suspenders - surreal or what? [When Deb - who has never worn suspenders, dammit - started work on BR as a filing clerk in 1974, such literature was filed implausibly under "Crawley Stabling Arrangements", which was odd as Crawley had lost its sidings some years before.] (snipped) How you balance authenticity & compromise is truly down to you, and you alone. As regards the first point - we kept it under 'weekend and special working'. And yes the balance of 'authenticity' (whatever that might turn out to be seeing as we run trains of empty wagons pulled by locos driven, mostly, by little electric motors whatever their outline) and compromise is a matter of personal choice and the way in which you regard your own fictional piece of railway. And provided it does what you want it to it doesn't matter how much you do or don't know. In my view the crossover comes when you start proclaiming it in public as something which it clearly isn't - then you are either betraying your ignorance or suggesting that others might be ignorant, and that's not fair to either party. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Ignorance might well be bliss, but ... I would hate to be in a position where I would stop learning, it gives life meaning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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