RBE Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Having loads of stock to repaint on a regular basis I cant help but wonder why all of the railway colours available aren't made in gloss. The answer may seem obvious but lets think. Any repaint job will reqiure at some point to have decals applied. This needs to be over a gloss finish. This means we have to take our nice flat paint, gloss varnish it add decals and then flatten it again. It seems that we are wasting cash on gloss varnish and also the precious time it takes to gloss and wait for it to dry. Has anyone else thought this? Cheers Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted February 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2011 In the past I have used gloss when it is available. As I started painting models before the easy availability of airbrushes I always use a brush. I do find though that it is slightly easier to get a smooth finish with matt or semi matt than gloss. I don't know which sprays best. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The OP raises a pertinent point. Decal manufacturers often state their transfers sit better on gloss finish. I found that HMRS 'Methfix' transfers stick like poo to a blanket on the Humbrol gloss enamel paint I used when doing grained teak finish. So well in fact that they could not be removed without damaging the paintwork. They are noticeably reluctant to adhere to a satin finish though. This applies equally to cellulose paint. Waterslide transfers always sit better on gloss. Anyway it is good modelling practice ot varnish after the transfers are in place. As regards gloss model paint, this used to be available from Precision Paints and Cherry's some years ago, but I think modellers of the time demanded satin paint. This used to be the difference between amateurs and professionals. The latter mainly sprayed with gloss colours and the final finish was determined by the 'varnish'. Nowadays, more amateurs are turning to car aerosol gloss colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 As a finished model I think that a silk finish looks better as gloss on a model is too shiny. However as gloss surfaces are much better to fix transfers to and most of us use varnish to seal them and finish off the models, I am also at a loss as to why the dull finish is the norm. Might just be a backlash against the old Humbrol gloss finish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Satin or matt looks better and covers more mistakes! Gloss is very unforgiving as it reflects imperfections that matt does not. Personally when I use enamel phoenix I spray the matt paint, then varnish with a mixture of Rustins gloss and Dull cote, to gave a satin finish that will take the transfers. Once dry the varnish will work with decal set and solve to bed down the transfers, not quite as well as gloss, but it works. When gloss cellulose is used and rubbed down with fine compound then all transfers will adhere better.and bed down. Cellulose not rubbed down may still repel some water slide transfers unless decal set is used. A drop or two of Johnson Klear or equivalent added to the water may also bed down the transfers even better on straight gloss. Car cellulose paints are all gloss, (except matt and satin black). Halfords supply gloss black in cellulose as well. Rustins gloss varnish is sold as clear gloss varnish for metal protection, and Dullcote is a cellulose varnish. Phoenix market gloss varnish to suit their matt paints, and it can be mixed with the paint to make satin. All of the above applies strictly to fine delicate airbrush usage, not cans or brush. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 There is one more very big issue with using gloss as a basecoat, it requires by it´s very nature, to be applied a bit heavier than a matte paint, and that makes the mask edges a lot more protruding! It also dries MUCH slower, wich makes dust more likely to end up in the paint AND more likely to run under the masking tape...... And as most use water based paints today, gloss isn´t an option anyway...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Satin or matt looks better and covers more mistakes! Gloss is very unforgiving as it reflects imperfections that matt does not. Personally when I use enamel phoenix I spray the matt paint, then varnish with a mixture of Rustins gloss and Dull cote, to gave a satin finish that will take the transfers. Once dry the varnish will work with decal set and solve to bed down the transfers, not quite as well as gloss, but it works. When gloss cellulose is used and rubbed down with fine compound then all transfers will adhere better.and bed down. Cellulose not rubbed down may still repel some water slide transfers unless decal set is used. A drop or two of Johnson Klear or equivalent added to the water may also bed down the transfers even better on straight gloss. Car cellulose paints are all gloss, (except matt and satin black). Halfords supply gloss black in cellulose as well. Rustins gloss varnish is sold as clear gloss varnish for metal protection, and Dullcote is a cellulose varnish. Phoenix market gloss varnish to suit their matt paints, and it can be mixed with the paint to make satin. All of the above applies strictly to fine delicate airbrush usage, not cans or brush. Stephen. I'm not sure that you have taken the point I was trying to make Stephen, I always apply my decals to a gloss surface in order to bed the decals down with no visible carrier. My issue it that I begrudge having to take my lovely satin finish apply a gloss coat over it to apply my decals and then satin or matt varnish over that to get back what I already had. I would sooner only have to varnish once for my final coat especially on my commission jobs. It adds at least a day to any repaint that I have to do. Time is money and all that. Cheers Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 That's the point I was making, there are few gloss railway paints. Everything has to be a work round unless gloss is used, and most gloss will be car paint or enamel modelling paint like Revell or Humbrol, which are just a standard range, not railway specific in gloss. Decal set and Decal solve help with grip on matt, but not as good as on gloss varnish or paint, Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is an interesting thread. I usually finish models (locos, coaches and some wagons) in a gloss top coat and weather over that. The effects can be very pleasing if carefully observed. The loco in my signature was treated in this manner. Certain faded finishes would look wrong if they were shiny , but this is down to observation and weathering more than the finish of the livery colours. I never understand many railway modellers' obsession with painting everything matt... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 37 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I've always believed in my modelling background. The smaller the obgect as well as the smaller the scale the further you move away from gloss, also the lighter the shade should be. Probably not agreed with but does the job for me. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I've always believed in my modelling background. The smaller the obgect as well as the smaller the scale the further you move away from gloss, also the lighter the shade should be. Probably not agreed with but does the job for me. Mark Amen to that! I also put some gray paint in my final clearcoat to represent the particles in the air that makes colors more muted at a distance. That works as well . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Certain faded finishes would look wrong if they were shiny , but this is down to observation and weathering more than the finish of the livery colours. I've always believed in my modelling background. The smaller the obgect as well as the smaller the scale the further you move away from gloss, also the lighter the shade should be. I also put some gray paint in my final clearcoat to represent the particles in the air that makes colors more muted at a distance. All kinda getting at the same thing - observation of what things actually look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yes Mark thats right. Its all to do with how light reflects off of surfaces and its propagation through air. The further you are from something the more air particles there are to scatter the ray, therefore the less colour is able to hit your eyeball. Of course a model train is only centimeters away yet we are trying to get our brains to read it as real so in fact probably a few hundred meters away, the smaller the scale the further the scale distance that the light has to pass through. We can't scale light of course so we have to manually change the colour a little to simulate the extra scattering light would get over those distances. This is why distant objetcs look fainter than nearer ones. As for shine its generally the most intense light reflections that have enough concentration to not be scattered over distance so therefore things far away don't tend to look as reflective as things close to. You will get pinpoint shines but the more subtle relections will be scattered around a bit and therefore not be as crisply reflected to your eye as something nearer. Thats why we often prefer a slightly duller finish to our models. I do however feel that a glossier finish if well applied and weathered in as James suggests can look very convicing in OO and above. Probably less so in N gauge though. Cheers Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunmar Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi, The answer to the original posting is here in the postings that followed. For myself- most of my work is airbrushed in satin paints and when dry is given a coat of 'Johnson's Kleer' why? most decals are designed to adhere to a gloss finish and you 'DON'T GET CARRIER FILM' or commonly known as 'silvering'. Secondly as the original colour is sealed in any weathering that follows your 'Kleer' or gloss varnish will protect the base colour. Finally it's a well known fact that gloss paint or varnish will flow easier thro' the airbrush as under a microscope the surface of the paint has a 'flat' appearance whilst matt has a 'jagged' surface hence more resistance! (where on earthdid that come from?) When using satin paints (it covers better) add a little gloss varnish (you won't notice the difference) but will go thro' your airbrush much easier! More time spent on preparation will result in a really good paint job - rather than the quickest is better. Bill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 I think we have established the decals sitting better on gloss, thats why we do the gloss coat after the base colour. What you are telling us its exactly what I said in the OP. The original question was why dont we have the colours in gloss so we have that nice smooth coat to put the decals onto without having to gloss varnish after it to enable decals to be added, which adds an extra stage to proceedings!! Its not about being quickest its about removing a pointless step. I think M Graf hit the nail on the head with the thicker coat issue and more susceptable masking. I'm not too sold in the dust and drying thing though as although M Graf is absolutely correct in what he says it also means we have that same issue with the gloss varnish stage. TBH I don't generally have trouble with satin paint going through the airbrush, it usually gives a great finish. I actually have more trouble with gloss. I'm not sure your logic is correct with regard to the gloss flowing easier though. In fact flow mechanics (I once worked as a gas flow engineer in the steel industry) says rougher surfaces allow fluids to flow better which may seem odd but is actually true as there is less frictional resistance to movement, think of a trainer on a polished gym floor compared to a rough bit of concrete paver. The shoe almost sticks to the smooth floor if you try to slide it along, but scuffs along easily on the rougher surface, its because less of the shoe is in contact with the floor. The same goes for particles rushing past each other or a surface, in fact airlines made use of this after obsevring sharks. The superstreamlined nature of sharks is greatly aided by its finely pimpled skin which allows it to glide through the water with less friction. The airlines copied this by adding fine pimpled textured sheet to the outside of their jet planes to reduce friction through the air. Another question though, is satin paint rougher than gloss paint when its a liquid? I suspect that its the carrier fluid rather than the particles that makes the difference, I don't know, I've never been a paint technician! . In the name of discovery and interest maybe someone who is or was can help here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It matters not whether one sprays gloss or matt. If it is correctly thinned it will flow as desired. I have always sprayed gloss. The final finish is applied with clear gloss cellulose. It is the amount of air that creates the satin finish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hi, Just to add a sidenote to this Hannants under the name Xtracolor do a very extensive range of military gloss enamels precisely for the reasons mentioned above. Once dry it's ready to decal and also seemed to have sorted out the thickness problem and to a certain extent the drying time. If you're not aware of them then http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=8272&product_type_id=&code=&scale_id=&keyword_search=&setPerPage=25&save_search_name=&save_search= The generic colours can be quite useful and there is the odd railway substitute. One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that if you varnish matt/satin paints they look darker. Possibly not quite the issue it can be with some camouflage shades but bauxite is a colour that changes under a coat of varnish. The point is that matt paints go darker under a varnish coat. The colour shift when a gloss paint is varnished is rather less and tends towards a lighter shade which often looks better which then leads on to the quesion of "scale colour" but perhaps that's best left for elsewhere. Cheers Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunmar Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 My point entirely Stu - in my former life I was an aircraft modeller and an active member of International Plastic Modellers Society and have had a lot of experience with Xtracolor paints - they were a god send to aircraft modellers. Whilst gas may flow better thro' pipes I stick by my original statement ' gloss paint does pass thro' the airbrush easier! Bill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 It has more or less nothing to do wether the paint is matte or gloss, all that matters to make it flow better is that the matte paint dries much faster, and always causes some amount of tip dry. As you might see, that can effect the flow through the nozzle. But if you add some retarder in the matte paint it behaves exactly as the gloss paint. Some matte clears however contains talcum as a matting agent, and that makes the use of a bigger tip/needle necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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