RMweb Gold ian Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2011 The UK system for guaranteeing cheques is due to end in June this year. After that time you will still be able to write a cheque BUT IT WON'T BE GUARANTEED TO BE PAID. Currently your cheque guarantee or debit card will guarantee payment up to a certain amount (which varies from £50 to £250). The practical upshot of this is that come July it will be a very trusting trader who takes a cheque from a customer at an exhibition. BTW the banks plan to withdraw cheques completely in 2018. Now would be a good time to get a money belt... More info http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/britons-unaware-cheque-guarantee-system-is-ending-2199928.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Oh b****r - given the number of shows I have gone to where traders cannot get their magic electronic card readers to pick up a signal and process the transaction it is going to be a nuisance. I never carry enough cash as there is always an 'unexpected something' that takes my eye which I had not accounted for and the cheque book has been a super backup. RIP the cheque Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2011 The 2018 date is a target date for withdrawal of cheques, though how realistic that is even the Payments Council don't know. For it to happen they have to come up with a suitable alternative which they are struggling with. So nothing is definite on the phasing out of cheques yet. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I probably write between 3-6 cheques a week. I dislike this forced move to electronic payment and will have very little to do with Direct Debit. I do use electronic transfer, credit cards and of course cash. At shows, many traders refuse to have electronic payment systems due to the large bank charges imposed on them and as we frequently see at some shows they simply do not function in the typical show venues. The amount of cash changing hands at the Reading O gauge show is frightening to behold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This means that many smaller clubs and societies will need to accept electronic fund transfer. But how would you give a relative a gift for birthday/xmas if you can't send a cheque? Cash? The Bank wants to reduce cash but getting rid of cheques might ensure that there is more cash in circulation. Bring out the £50's! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 .....BTW the banks plan to withdraw cheques completely in 2018. Yes, well they are looking for more ways to offload liability for fraud, etc. on to their customers. Now would be a good time to get a money belt... D'you think barter would work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 .....But how would you give a relative a gift for birthday/xmas if you can't send a cheque? Cash? Cash? Not by post (Royal Mail etc.,) that's bound not to reach the loved ones, or at least on the few occasions I've sent notes or coins they have not arrived, the envelopes have though. In my other hobby (A7's) cash is sometimes 'lost' in some gear wheels etc.,..... that arrives OK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2011 At shows, many traders refuse to have electronic payment systems due to the large bank charges imposed on them and as we frequently see at some shows they simply do not function in the typical show venues. Not always true - I help Paul Martin of EDM models at shows and he transferred to an electronic machine last year instead of using a paper based system that he then had to process over a web site when he got home. I understand that the new system was no more expensive but had several added benefits that made it very worthwhile - the transaction was always guaranteed as an authorisation code is obtained every time which is not always the case when processing remotely two days after the transaction has taken place. The cash gets into his bank account after three days rather than about two weeks with the old system and it saves an awful lot of time as there are no transactions to put through after the show. Another benefit is that when customers can see the machine they are inclined to spend a bit more when they don't have the cash with them - it's no wonder that we jokingly call it the 'Fleece-o-Matic' As you say the only downside is the lack of signal at some locations - Stafford being a classic example inside a steel framed, metal clad cattle shed At the Sparsholt NG show we had to put the transmitter outside the window to pick up the signal but most times it only takes a few seconds to go through. We have always accepted cheques from our regular customers and will continue to do so - many exceed the cheque card limit anyway. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2011 D'you think barter would work? I shall be taking goats to Warley this year. They won't be buying anything themselves of course - just browsing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 If the goat signal is a bit weak, you can always fall back to fattened pigs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2011 It's entirely possible that the extra cash being held in lieu of cheques will pose a significant security risk for traders during and after shows. Bob Diamond of Barclays suggests it's time to stop bashing the banks. Au contraire, Bob! Him & his like sadly underestimate the frustration the general public has with banks and their failure to recognise the need to provide a public service. If the cheque system is going to be withdrawn, a viable replacement needs to be in place and proven well before 2018. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2011 If the goat signal is a bit weak... That'll be the dropout. Good for the roses, apparently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I happen to know a senior bank computer expert and his opinion is that 2018 is a done deal, whatever happens other existing systems will simply have to cope, unless Government forces the banks hands. They are hoping that using mobiles for payment is going to get more popular, and the electronic card payment systems will take up the slack. Money transfer is still problematic, but a Pay Pal like high street bank supported system would work, after all most cheques are sent to account holders, and a Pay Pal like system that uses identification by email etc could take part of the transactions. It all depends on wireless connections, and as others have said the signal can be a problem, and the banks charge more for these transactions. Cash is not always an option, it is not as safe, and a nuisance to carry. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 If the cheque system is going to be withdrawn, a viable replacement needs to be in place and proven well before 2018. What would you consider "a viable replacement" for the cheque that doesn't already exist? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 There is no exact replacement for the Cheque in law, it is closely defined these days with multiple restrictions, periods of validity, cancellation rules, (very complex), and is based on the issue of a personal promise to pay, rather than the promise of a bank to pay as with money. Until the cards to g/tee the cheques came in they were never G/teed at all, an assumption of an honourable settlement was expected, and that's what we are returning to till 2018. A cheque does not have to be written with a cheque book, any written cheque will suffice, but with the caveat that any mistake could cost you dearly!! .and banks are entitled to charge for processing non standard cheques at commercial business rates....very costly to write a cheque on a cow, as once suggested by AP Herbert in a comedy story....legal, but idiocy!! It is the lawful definition of any "replacement" that's the issue, ....after if it is replaced,.....and then there is no point in the change. Lack of use of cheques is behind the problem, dropping them affects few transactions in total, and the bankers are expecting few objections and want it to quietly die away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2011 What would you consider "a viable replacement" for the cheque that doesn't already exist? I really do question whether the cheque system needs replacing. It's a perfectly good money transfer system. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 And of course they'll continue to brag about all the choice the sucker customer has. 'Take it or leave it' as far as I can see... Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2011 Even if there were to be a reversal and cheques (and cheque guarantee cards) were to remain, I can guarantee one thing - even if it required a change in law, they'll become a darn sight more expensive than any other payment system around, as an incentive for everyone to stop using them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldrick25 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 What happened to the mechanical card roller copier machine, that seemed to work well when there was no electronic alternative? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGN Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It is of course a fundamental change to the whole basis of the banking relationship, and it is in my view quite disgraceful. It is in general the right of a creditor to direct his debtor to pay the debt not to him, but to some other person whom he directs. And THAT (not any "personal promise to pay") is the legal essence of the cheque (or, indeed, of any bill of exchange). I'll be interested to see HOW the banks actually propose to implement this and make it stick. They may stop issuing pre-printed cheque books ... but a cheque is a cheque even though it be not written on one of their pre-printed forms. I can take any piece of paper which happens to be to hand and write a cheque on it ... and provided (a) it complies with all the legal formalities, and (b ) my bank is indebted to me in a sum sufficient to cover it the bank is bound to honour it. Of course, it may be that the bank writes administrative charges into their banking contract to cover the cost to them of processing cheques. But provided I am willing to pay them, they must still honour my bills of exchange drawn on them. And, as they have discovered to their cost in other contexts, if those charges amount to "penalties" rather than genuine charges related to the cost to them of processing the cheque, the courts may strike them down as being unlawful. In the old days, cheque books were not pre-printed with the details of the drawer's bank, and it was perfectly possible to write a cheque using somebody else's cheque book (there is an episode of Dad's Army in which this happens). You just had to fill in the details of your bank account. Provided enough people demand it, I can see the likes of De La Rue being perfectly willing to produce old-style blank cheque books once the banks no longer offer pre-printed ones. As to the end of the guarantee scheme, well, I have never had a guarantee card anyway - the whole scheme was a load of unnecessary nonsense dreamed up by the banks. I don't carry much cash. If people don't accept my credit card, I write a cheque. If they ask for a guarantee card, I tell them I've never had one. You'd be surprised how many traders, faced with the choice of accepting a cheque without a guarantee card or losing a sale, are willing to trust me. And those who won't? Well, especially at exhibitions, they're askign me to take a risk in dealing with them, too, as it may be very difficult to track them down and enforce my statutory rights if the goods they sell me are faulty. So if they are not prepared to trust me, well, why should I trust them??? They lose a sale. More fool them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphaniel Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 But how would you give a relative a gift for birthday/xmas if you can't send a cheque? Cash? The Bank wants to reduce cash but getting rid of cheques might ensure that there is more cash in circulation. Bring out the £50's! Cheques are great for sending in cards as gifts but to be fair, I think this cheque withdrawal situation should be compared to the gift voucher scenario - as far as I can tell, the good old high street store gift voucher has been completely replaced by a wide range of 'top up' cards available from many outlets. Gift vouchers were never secure if lost (neither is cash!)) but the cards are much more flexible and convenient for the customer as well as - I presume - for the stores, even if there is a little commission to give away in their sale. Going back to cheque withdrawal, I think you have to look beyond 2018 because while cheque use has massively declined over the last few years, it is being followed by a decline in the use of cash. The new contactless cards, mobile phone based systems and PayPal are all in a good position to continue to soak up small transactions and transactions between small traders and individuals and there must come a point where the infrastructure surrounding cash (printing, security, cash machines, people in banks) is too expensive compared to the cash in circulation to continue, even if it is not this century. By cash, I mean notes as coins can be made to have a real value (unless you prefer pigs and goats...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphaniel Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 What happened to the mechanical card roller copier machine, that seemed to work well when there was no electronic alternative? This is 'chip and pin', rather than cheques, is it not? I have had a credit card rolled in the last year - possibly at a festival - but my understanding is that traders lose their rights if they accept card transactions without a PIN. This also applies to card transactions where goods are signed for, but no PIN is used - something that still happens in some branches of chain stores from time to time on their electronic till systems. As someone has pointed out elsewhere in this thread, I have never known a shop stop selling anything just because they cannot get their chip and pin system to work. If they have electricity, they are happy to switch to old fashioned signatures and I bet most smaller outfits still have their card rollers handy for when the electricity fails! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 [shameless plug] Luckily for folks attending the Mansfield Show in March [/shameless plug] there is a cash machine only a couple of minutes walk from the venue should one of our traders tempt anyone without the appropriate cash on them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2011 As since I retired and funds have been limited before going to exhibitions and swapmeets I decide how much I can afford to spend and take that amount with me and when its gone its gone. On some occasions it has gone as soon as I've walked through the door and on some other occasions I've left the event having spent very little if anything at all. On very rare occasions I have resorted to a credit card for that 'must have' item but only twice in the last year or so. The amount I take with me is rarely more than £50 and usually in the £20 to £30 bracket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I still occasionally use cheques, for transactions where the retailer doesn't accept a card. I do not carry large quantities of cash around, and generally most people of my age (and even my parents' age) don't either for perfectly valid security reasons. Without cheques, retailers would have to find a way of accepting cards, or they would simply find that punters would move on and spend their money somewhere that did accept a payment system that was convenient to them. The most cash I've ever handled in one go was £14,000 and it was years ago delivering a pallet of fresh prawns that were cash on delivery. Even though it wasn't my money I felt uncomfortable with it, and locked it into the glove box of the wagon. I spent the day scared of stopping even at traffic lights in case some-one jumped in and tried to jack the cash. I think most people (traders included) would not feel at their best with that sort of cash knocking around their person with nowhere really secure to put it for a couple of days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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