Heljan Baby Deltic

[Pennine MC]

 

It's Christmas - time to rip off the punters big time - nowt to do with supply and demand, just retailer greed.

 

Hattons prices often vary according to supply and demand and possibly other reasons. I've no doubt there's a profit motive there as well, but it's nothing to do with Christmas.

 

Hornby may well have missed a trick with late to market products like the B1 and B17.

 

Again I dont see the relevance. Hornby dont tell Hattons what price to sell at.

 

The general (I think way above inflation) increase in the cost of RTR model railway items

 

 

Why would it be linked to UK inflation? It's part of a world economy, in which the ever increasing expectations of a Chinese workforce play a big part

 

cctrans ... Perhaps you are a retailer ...

 

John a retailer? Ho hum. With due respect Brian, I think you'd do well to better get to know the folk you're arguing with.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Pennine MC

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder how many times it needs to be repeated - in this country we have had inflation at a rate of 5% in the past year, that no doubt impacts on the international value of our currency which had dropped by 20% in the previous couple of years, business loans are - according to the media - not cheap and most businesses need working capital. Add in Ian's point about the expectations of the Chinese workforce plus increases in some raw material costs and it is not surprising that prices of imported model railway goods have risen. And I'm neither defending nor damning anybody - model railway retailers are often pricing their pre-orders months (and sometimes years) ahead and many of them try to hold those prices for folk who have pre-ordered so it's hardly surprising that later batches might come with higher prices - unless they are the hard to shift variants which will be priced down to release the money they are keeping tied-up for no return.

 

This is the world we now live in and we either have to accept it, and maybe grumble a bit, or take up a hobby which doesn't involve imported anything and is proof against home grown inflation; off-hand I can't think of one.

[Downendian]

Hi Brian

It's standard Hattons pricing policy, nothing more sinister than that. The GSYP BDs have shifted quickly and thus demand a premium price for those desperadoes that can't resist the little beauties (I understand these weak willed souls). I'll wait 6 months before getting a GFYE, gambling thst they will come down in price, and i pre-ordered D5901 the RTC baby at £96 which is due early next year-Feb I think.

I'd wait until then if you want to save.

 

Neil

 

[cctransuk]

cctransuk - Perhaps you are a retailer which might explain your "Oh please - join the real world !!" opening gambit.

 

Nope - just a producer of transfers, which I do as a service to other modellers as a direct spin-off and at the expense (in modelling time) of my own modelling activities.

 

If you are going to get agitated every time the supply and demand rule of commerce becomes evident, I'd book a slot at your local coronary care unit ASAP.

 

It's all part of life's rich pattern - perhaps precipitated this time by a delayed decision to purchase a Baby Deltic that revealed an increase in price when the decision was eventually made?

 

Just speculating!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Brian D]

OMG! I seem to have unearthed a nest of capitalists! Up the workers!!....and don't forget the consumer.

End of.

Regards,

Brian.

[Baby Deltic]

OMG! I seem to have unearthed a nest of capitalists! Up the workers!!....and don't forget the consumer.

End of.

Regards,

Brian.

 

I think that's a bit OTT, and unfair to be quite honest.

[Andy Y]

And silly. Can we please wind it in Brian?

[Brian D]

 

I think that's a bit OTT, and unfair to be quite honest.

 

Apologies, Baby Deltic - I do not include you amongst those, almost a clique (all "liking" each other's posts), on this post appearing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the retailers.

 

 

Andy Y - This is just a quick final response - haven't got time to cut and paste each comment and write a paragraph as some of the clique have. Am now fully wound in, but you could equally have tipped cctransuk the wink about some of his OTT comments here I would have thought.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[Baby Deltic]

Apology accepted, Brian. No problem.

[Pennine MC]

 

... almost a clique (all "liking" each other's posts), on this post appearing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the retailers

 

Or maybe we just share a common outlook Brian, one that (with due respect) is a tad more wordly wise than your own.

 

As for 'standing shoulder to shoulder with retailers', it's not just offensive but it's off the mark - understanding and accepting something isn't actually the same thing as condoning it.

 

My last word on this.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Pennine MC

[royaloak]

Or maybe we have all been around a bit longer than you Brian and understand better how the retail world works especially in a "global" sense.

[cctransuk]

... but you could equally have tipped cctransuk the wink about some of his OTT comments here I would have thought.

Brian.

 

Please elucidate - what specifically was OTT in what I wrote?

 

I try and maintain an evenhanded approach to what I read and how I respond here - but when such a radical view is taken of normal trading practices I feel constrained to to try and bring a little reality into the discussion - nothing more.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[D605Eagle]

Leave it guys, it will do us no good....

back on topic if I may?

Were the nose ladders left on until the locos were refurbished? I seem to remember that the early class 20s had their ladders removed due to overhead electrification. I always thought ladders made the babies look a bit odd, and would love to have the excuse to run one without steps when they arrive.

Jim

Edited December 7, 2011 by D605Eagle

[SRman]

"Baby Deltics" because they had a cut-down version of the Deltic engine on board - 9 cylinders (I think) as opposed to 18 per engine in the Deltics themselves. Bodywise they were, indeed, a cut down 37/40 style.

[BrushVeteran]

Leave it guys, it will do us no good....

back on topic if I may?

Were the nose ladders left on until the locos were refurbished? I seem to remember that the early class 20s had their ladders removed due to overhead electrification. I always thought ladders made the babies look a bit odd, and would love to have the excuse to run one without steps when they arrive.

Jim

I'm afraid, Jim, they kept their nose ladders right up to refurbishment. I have pictures of most of the class stored at Stratford and they all have their ladders. I believe class 40's from D210 - D324 also sported these ladders when new.

[bigherb]

The ladder never looked right to me, like someone had put a HO ladder on a OO locomotive.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... why were they known as Baby Deltics ? ...

At the time of introduction the big noise - DP1 - had begun operating regularly on the ECML and making its distinctive racket the like of which had never previously been heard. Alongside which there appeared a smaller relation which by comparison screamed. As always with informal titles the precise derivation is not entirely clear, but the phrase 'screaming baby' is one that I remember in connection with these locos.

[Baby Deltic]

Aside from being known officially as English Electric type 2's, BR also referred to them as the 'small deltic locomotives'. Naturally, loco and depot crews soon began to refer to them as baby deltics.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Baby Deltic

[D605Eagle]

I'm afraid, Jim, they kept their nose ladders right up to refurbishment. I have pictures of most of the class stored at Stratford and they all have their ladders. I believe class 40's from D210 - D324 also sported these ladders when new.

Oh well...thanks anyway!

[railroadbill]

I'm afraid, Jim, they kept their nose ladders right up to refurbishment. I have pictures of most of the class stored at Stratford and they all have their ladders. I believe class 40's from D210 - D324 also sported these ladders when new.

 

Just to add to this, I've got a copy of "Modern railways" for June 1963 (cost 2 shillings and sixpence). Among much gloom and doom about the Beeching report, the magazine also has a picture of a line of 8 Baby Deltics stored out of use at Stratford. Caption states that "It is understood that when a unit of this type sustains an engine failure it is now taken out of traffic". That's when not if. Pic is dated April 6 1963 so by then refurbishment was the next step. Presumably there could have been 2 original condition locos still running at that point?

Edited December 8, 2011 by railroadbill

[Baby Deltic]

D5905 never got added to the lineup at Stratford. When it finally failed, it was towed straight to Doncaster.

[railroadbill]

D5905 never got added to the lineup at Stratford. When it finally failed, it was towed straight to Doncaster.

 

Thanks for that, Baby Deltic, adds to the story of these interesting locos. My intended Heljan baby deltic purchase was put off by several pre-orders (Beattie well tank etc.) arriving at much the same time. I found I'd actually recorded D5900 in my Ian Allan ABC booklet all those years ago so I thought, there's a clue, I'll have that one. Unfortunately that's the most popular one that has sold out first. Could wait for next tranche or renumber a different one of course.

Anyway, my Ian Allan ABC is the winter 1962/3 edition, so I could as a schoolboy have just about seen D5900 in its original form, therefore I should wait for the original version to be produced or assume I'd seen the refurbished version some time from 1964ish onwards and have one of those. Shouldn't be too picky I guess!

Edited December 9, 2011 by railroadbill

[railroadbill]

"Baby Deltics" because they had a cut-down version of the Deltic engine on board - 9 cylinders (I think) as opposed to 18 per engine in the Deltics themselves. Bodywise they were, indeed, a cut down 37/40 style.

 

The Baby Deltic Project is in the process of producing a Baby Deltic replica by a "cut and shut" process on a scrap class 37. This already houses the sole remaining T9-29 deltic engine that the group have restored to running order. Their web site is at

http://www.thebabydelticproject.co.uk

and is well worth a look.

I bought their book "Baby Deltic - the story of an engine's rebirth" from the web site and highly recommend it - it is, though, very technical and is about the diesel engine itself and not the locomotives. It is a very though account of the engine and the work needed to get it running again. You can also buy a mug and a mouse mat.

 

Try this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGzhcxqmX1M

to hear their engine running (other videos near there as well).

 

I've no links with this group but their efforts are really inspiring.

 

The T9-29 is a nine cylinder version of the Napier Deltic 2 stroke diesel. Both the 9 cylinder and the 18 cylinder (as in class 55s) were developed as marine engines for fast naval craft (the older Ton class minesweeper as captained by Prince Charles had 2 18 cyl engines, the Hunt class was (perhaps still is ) powered by 3 9 cylinder engines).

The Deltic diesels had a high power to weight ratio, perhaps not so significant in a small suburban loco however, where reliability should have been more significant. However, a brave design for it's time - and historically fascinating.

 

Do look at the web site - I found it very inspiring even if I only buy the Heljan model!

 

Bill

Edited December 10, 2011 by railroadbill

[Pennine MC]

 

... They had a high power to weight ratio, perhaps not so significant in a small suburban loco however, where reliability should have been more significant.

 

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure OTTOMH and I'm not running to check books while my tea's settling, but presumably the Babies were simply put forward as a contender for the broad type 2 'spec', without necessarily any specific purpose in mind. It highlights (in a very general sense) how BR didnt always make best use of its assets by taking account of particular strengths and weaknesses.

[The Stationmaster]

 

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure OTTOMH and I'm not running to check books while my tea's settling, but presumably the Babies were simply put forward as a contender for the broad type 2 'spec', without necessarily any specific purpose in mind. It highlights (in a very general sense) how BR didnt always make best use of its assets by taking account of particular strengths and weaknesses.

I think it was more a case of BR issuing a spec - probably a relatively broad spec in many respects - and the manufacturers submitting tenders for prototypes against that spec. BR might have been interested in seeing how various ideas worked when applied to that spec hence ordering a loco design with a Deltic configuration engine as well as considerable variations over the Pilot Scheme in respect of other features such as control equipment, generators and so on.

 

And if it had been left at that as a proper 'Pilot Scheme' all might have come out in the wash in terms of reliability, maintenance costs, and casualties etc. But as we all know instead it turned into a mad frenzy to get rid of steam and at the same time create what I have often referred to as a 'job creation scheme' with orders going to some builders who shouldn't really have been trusted but who were located in places where loss of jobs and factory closures would have presented political headaches while all around were getting more work than they could handle.