50A55B Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Just been on the Hottuns website and I am taking back my misgivings on the loco's face forthwith. The reason for this? In the loco head-on view as here, I think it is the prismatic effect of the headcode glazing insert that appears to shrink the black portion, especially its radiused corners. A flat plane of glazing material would remove this effect and also provide more space for those undernourished headcode characters. http://www.ehattons....6416_Qty1_5.jpg I don't have one of these yet, but I found that the' undernourished' look to the headcode boxes on Heljan's Kestrel can be much improved by running a black marker pen along the outside edge of the 'glass' insert. Changing the incorrect headcode font to the correct styleand size completes the transformation. This also works with their Claytons. I'm at a loss why Heljan make such a mess of their 4 character headcodes - their 47 and Hymek ones were about the first model representations by any manufacturer to look convincing. Since then they've been all over the place in size and style. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I'm still very pleased with my first two Baby Deltics, although we have all been made aware of certain detail faults. One of the naughtiest mistakes, albeit not immediately obvious, is the radiator roof fan not lining up with the square side radiators. My ancient Ian Allan drawing book and a good square-on broadside photo in my picture album prove that they should line up, whereas the majority of other photos are taken at various three-quarter angles. I'm not too bothered, i could always replace it with a suitable open etched one, in the correct position. Now we come to an intriguing conundrum, the drawing/artwork on the Heljan Baby Deltic instruction sheet and also on the separate spares sheet, show the roof fan and side grilles not in line, like on their model? Where does this interpretation come from, are Heljan singing from a different hymn sheet? Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Now we come to an intriguing conundrum, the drawing/artwork on the Heljan Baby Deltic instruction sheet and also on the separate spares sheet, show the roof fan and side grilles not in line, like on their model? Where does this interpretation come from, are Heljan singing from a different hymn sheet? The only drawings I know are the Graham Fenn one in British Rail Main Line Diesel Locomotoves and the R S Carter one in Brish Rail Main Line Diesels which are almost identical with all the same errors, although not the roof fan. Both seem to be a more detailed version of the BR diagram drawing. I seem to remember the Lima Class 40 had an offset roof fan/side grills as well. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) I don't have one of these yet, but I found that the' undernourished' look to the headcode boxes on Heljan's Kestrel can be much improved by running a black marker pen along the outside edge of the 'glass' insert. Changing the incorrect headcode font to the correct styleand size completes the transformation. This also works with their Claytons. I'm at a loss why Heljan make such a mess of their 4 character headcodes - their 47 and Hymek ones were about the first model representations by any manufacturer to look convincing. Since then they've been all over the place in size and style. To be fair, Kestrel had a different typeface on its headcodes anyway. I can't vouch for Heljan's correctness or otherwise but it doesn't look too far out to me when compared with photos of Kestrel. Edited November 15, 2011 by SRman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) I don't have one of these yet, but I found that the' undernourished' look to the headcode boxes on Heljan's Kestrel can be much improved by running a black marker pen along the outside edge of the 'glass' insert. Changing the incorrect headcode font to the correct styleand size completes the transformation. This also works with their Claytons. I'm at a loss why Heljan make such a mess of their 4 character headcodes - their 47 and Hymek ones were about the first model representations by any manufacturer to look convincing. Since then they've been all over the place in size and style. The next batch will have the correct style font. Heljan UK are at a loss to know how and why the font got changed but it seemed to happen on or about the third batch of Class 17's. The artwork for the colour layout has now been retrospectively changed throughout their model range. Edited November 16, 2011 by BrushVeteran 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The next batch will have the correct style font. Heljan UK are at a loss to know how and why the font got changed but it seemed to happen on or about the third batch of Class 17's. The artwork for the colour layout has now been retrospectively changed throughout their model range. Thanks, I know it must seem like a thankless task at times, but I'm very grateful we have subject matter experts trying to coax the factory into producing better models... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2011 I repent.Say after myself one hundred times-'It is the font,it is the font........' A baby deltic--but not as I remember it--sans headcode box----one day at Kings X in Sept.'59 when I 'copped' seven in a day,in company with many D 53XX ( later Class26) one solitary D61XX ( soon to be aScottish fiasco) , the prototype 'Deltic' and several D 2XX (later Class 40) This,in common with a generous helping of Gresley & Peppercorn Pacifics and a solitary A2. The type2 diesels had charge of ECS workings, the Cambridge Buffet Expresses and Outer Suburban & Moorgate line commuter services--complete with Gresley non-corridor stock. Yes--I'll buy----out of pure nostalgia alone.!! Now arrived.I am no longer bothered by fonts. Subjectively,the best Heljan to date. A class (23?) act. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdseyecircus Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Got my GSYP today. I am very pleased with it though the buffer beam details were more delictate than the co-bo and proved a little trouble some to remove enable the tension lock coupling to fit in one end. One of the few locos i have bought before its been reviewed in the magazines! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I do find this sort of indiscriminate tarring of previous posters as 'rivet counters' quite irksome. But anyway Brian, please tell me - because I for one am genuinely interested in your thought process - just what is the substance behind this trite old argument? Is it that because the gauge is out by 2.33mm, therefore an error of up to 2.33mm - plus or minus - anywhere else on a model should be acceptable as well? If manufacturers used that as a yardstick, there'd be some pretty odd looking models about... Once again, I'll say it - rational discussion of dimensional errors is not a crime. And bizarrely enough, some people (they're called EM or P4 modellers, by the way) are happy to work on models to eliminate that error in the gauge; if they're also prepared to amend any other errors, then they need to talk about those errors first. I probably have ten or a dozen HJ locos myself; none of them (bar perhaps the Hymek) are perfect and I dont expect them to be. Some things I can live with, others I shall be doing something about. Some of the improvements I've decided on myself, some are based on the thoughts of others - but if nobody had talked about these things, I'd not be able to make that choice. You have misquoted me by ommission. I went on to say "As I understand it, there isn't a preserved version to scan with a laser and, to my mind, photographs can be misleading". I also find nothing offensive or irksome about the term "rivet counter" - on occasion I am one myself when it suits. What I did observe before posting and what prompted my own post was what seemed like a wall of negativety towards this new HJ model - no "rational discussion" - just what seemed like endless critism. Turning back to my reference to the "4 foot". In OO gauge that is exactly what it is - not 4 feet 8 and a half (85% of what it should be). You also have to consider the radii typically used on the real railway compared with, say, three foot radius in OO which is often considered a luxury limited by available space. On a seperate issue, I am kicking myself because I fancied a GSYE and Hattons have sold out. Do I pay the extra at Modelfair I'm asking myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
50A55B Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 To be fair, Kestrel had a different typeface on its headcodes anyway. I can't vouch for Heljan's correctness or otherwise but it doesn't look too far out to me when compared with photos of Kestrel. I'd beg to differ, and would like to see some evidence to back this up. I've not seen any photos which show charcters differing from standard, and why would they go to the trouble anyway? Sorry about the excursion off topic, perhaps this could continue elsewhere if it has legs. Getting back on topic, it looks from the photos as if Hejan have used their interpretation of Sherwood Green for the lower bodyside, credit to them if so for not falling into the 'Deltic livery' trap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The lower bodyside is a a pretty good match for Sherwood green, rather than the "Yellow Green" used on the Type 5's and Hymeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Vader Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I may have missed this in the thread, but has anyone fitted kadee's to baby deltic, if so are the NEM pockets at the correct height? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) You have misquoted me by ommission. I went on to say "As I understand it, there isn't a preserved version to scan with a laser and, to my mind, photographs can be misleading". No intention to distort your position Brian, I habitually edit my quotes because I'd rather do that than quote too much or stuff that isnt relevant to what I want to pick up on. Nevertheless, my apologies if you felt that was what I was doing. That said, I'm still not sure of the significance here. Very few RTR models are laser scanned because of the expense anyway, but if I was scratchbuilding a model, I'd use drawings which I'd then cross-check against as many photos from as many angles as possible. It surely follows that that is good practice for an RTR manufacturer? Turning back to my reference to the "4 foot". In OO gauge that is exactly what it is - not 4 feet 8 and a half (85% of what it should be). You also have to consider the radii typically used on the real railway compared with, say, three foot radius in OO which is often considered a luxury limited by available space. Again you've lost me, I still dont think you've answered my question. What relevance does this have to the errors under discussion, with the headcode panels or fan grilles? Why do such well-nigh unavoidable compromises with track-related factors have a bearing on the acceptance of discrepancies in the upper bodywork? We also typically accept reductions of maybe 50% in platform length, does it follow that we should be prepared to accept a hypothetical Bo-Bo diesel that was a scale 25ft long, if one were made for us? I'll repeat, I dont expect any model to be perfect, but I also dont expect anybody to be holding back standards, either in RTR as it comes or in the efforts of those who see it as a basis for improvement. (I should no doubt make clear that this is a general discussion of principles now, FWIW the errors on the Baby Deltic wouldnt bother me). Edited November 17, 2011 by Pennine MC 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 The next batch will have the correct style font. Heljan UK are at a loss to know how and why the font got changed but it seemed to happen on or about the third batch of Class 17's. The artwork for the colour layout has now been retrospectively changed throughout their model range. We have also now arranged for Heljan to produce replacement headcode inserts for the current Class 23 releases 2300-2303 and these should be available on request from the Heljan stand at the Warley exhibition. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Is there going to be any way to get some of these if you are not going to be able to attend Warley? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 No intention to distort your position Brian, I habitually edit my quotes because I'd rather do that than quote too much or stuff that isnt relevant to what I want to pick up on. Nevertheless, my apologies if you felt that was what I was doing. That said, I'm still not sure of the significance here. Very few RTR models are laser scanned because of the expense anyway, but if I was scratchbuilding a model, I'd use drawings which I'd then cross-check against as many photos from as many angles as possible. It surely follows that that is good practice for an RTR manufacturer? Again you've lost me, I still dont think you've answered my question. What relevance does this have to the errors under discussion, with the headcode panels or fan grilles? Why do such well-nigh unavoidable compromises with track-related factors have a bearing on the acceptance of discrepancies in the upper bodywork? We also typically accept reductions of maybe 50% in platform length, does it follow that we should be prepared to accept a hypothetical Bo-Bo diesel that was a scale 25ft long, if one were made for us? I'll repeat, I dont expect any model to be perfect, but I also dont expect anybody to be holding back standards, either in RTR as it comes or in the efforts of those who see it as a basis for improvement. (I should no doubt make clear that this is a general discussion of principles now, FWIW the errors on the Baby Deltic wouldnt bother me). Perhaps I am not making myself clear. At the risk of repeating myself, the thrust of my post was to object to the negativelty I saw in the majority of previous posts when to my mind, it is a very acceptable model, which is reflected in at least a few of the posts since. You seem to think I have singled you out and I apologise if that is how you feel. You want to know where I'm coming from - you don't understand my thought processes apparently. Obviously my standards are lower than yours which I am quite ready to admit - the only thing I have scratch built is various buildings, not any rolling stock (but I've built some kits) and I have certainly not built a loco - I would probably not get the relationship between the grills and the windows right! But this model is on my want list (I'll have to wait for the next batch now though. Why are they in such short supply?). How can you be so assertive that laser scanning is rare. One of my prized possessions is a NRM OO Deltic Prototype which, I understand was scanned at Shildon Locomotion. Whilst accepting that some people have higher standards than me in the hobby I am not at all against the pursuit of excellence - lets have more of it - that is why the current and recent crop of RTR locos are so fantastic - the Deltic I mention above is a prime example. But, and to me a very big BUT, is the track that these models run on and it is not just about sleeper spacing and the distance between the rails being right. I am fortunate to work for a railway company and, although not involved directly in permanent way, I have an appreciation. If I can just point out that the Permanent Way Institution publication "British Railway Track Volume 4 Plain Line Maintenance" at 7.2.1 states that curves in passenger lines of 200 metres radius or less must have check rails. Now this works out, according to my maths, at about 8 feet 7 inches radius in 4mm scale. So, I would say that nearly all the roundy-roundy exhibition 4mm scale layouts you see, OO, EM, P4 or whatever, should have check rails on the curves leading back to the rear fiddle yards to be protypically correct. I have yet to see these at any exhibition. So we have the situation where it seems the locos must be perfect but the track a long way from it it seems. Odd to my mind but then my standards are lower and I'm happy to accept a slightly less than perfect loco sitting on slightly less than perfect track. End of! Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) You seem to think I have singled you out and I apologise if that is how you feel. Not at all Brian, by the same token I should apologise if you felt singled out. I'm just at saturation level with certain hoary old arguments, I spoke not just for myself but for any middle ground modellers who just want to enjoy the hobby the way it suits them without being caught by 'we've never had it so good' apologism at one end, and the 'oh, get on and do some modelling, it'll put hairs on yer chest' evangelising at t'other. I believe there are a large number of us who try to encompass both approaches, we just get misunderstood, misrepresented and generally caught in the middle. How can you be so assertive that laser scanning is rare. One of my prized possessions is a NRM OO Deltic Prototype which, I understand was scanned at Shildon Locomotion. Because it *is* rare, relatively speaking. If it wasnt, we'd know about it because the manufacturers would be using it more often as a sales pitch. OTTOMH I can only think of the Deltic, the Kernow Thumper and the Dapol Western that are using it or have used it; certainly with the Deltic, the cost wasnt an issue to Bachmann because it was underwritten by the NRM as commissioning party. Edited November 17, 2011 by Pennine MC 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Is there going to be any way to get some of these if you are not going to be able to attend Warley? I'm sure arrangments will be made to have these available after the Warley event and I will post on this forum as such once I actually know what they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Any idea when the weathered ones are due ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Why call it a Baby Deltic. It looks more like a Baby 45 with 3 windows. Deltics had 2 windows. Please advise. From Hornby Mag's Facebook page. Class 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 From Hornby Mag's Facebook page. Class The thing that makes it even more class is the fact that a Baby Deltic looks nothing like a class 45. Had they said baby 40 they might have been onto something. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hope this isn't a daft question, but I was wondering whether anybody's found out if they're going to produce the disc headcode version? I was at Warley yesterday, but realised on the way home I'd forgotten to visit the Heljan stand..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Looking at the model it looks like the mould has been made with an insert for the front so it looks like it is on the cards at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hope this isn't a daft question, but I was wondering whether anybody's found out if they're going to produce the disc headcode version? I was at Warley yesterday, but realised on the way home I'd forgotten to visit the Heljan stand..... Morning Steve, They had a poster at the back of their stand announcing the disc headcode version as being released in the first quarter of next year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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